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Book Plunge: The Lost World of the Israelite Conquest

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  • Book Plunge: The Lost World of the Israelite Conquest

    Have we got the conquest wrong?

    The link can be found here.

    ----------

    What do I think of John H.*and J. Harvey Walton's book published by IVP? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    Anytime I receive a book by John Walton from IVP, there is cause for much rejoicing. Ever since I read*The Lost World of Genesis One I have been a major fan of Walton. That book answered so many questions I had had about Genesis 1 as it explored it from a perspective of the Ancient Near East. My rejoicing was apparent when I got this latest book.

    There have been many books written on this topic and many of them I have enjoyed, but now I have to rethink them. The Waltons bring up problems with hypotheses that we have traditionally used. What if the conquest is not about punishment for sin? What if the wrong approach is to try to look at it from the perspective of if we would call it good or not? What if we've been wrong about all of this?

    The Waltons want to start by saying that we don't need to bring in our ideas of goodness to the text. For the ancients, much of what was good was that which was orderly. Something could be said to be good if it helped to establish order to the world. The conquest can be seen as a way of establishing order as YHWH prepares to take the land for the use that he had intended it for.*

    They also look at the texts that we use to say that God was doing this for the sins of the people. Sometimes, it is for sins, but these are sins usually committed against Israel, such as 1 Sam. 15. In these cases, it is specifically said that this is what it is for.*

    In all of this, this doesn't mean that we should accept the Canaanites as just fine people that weren't doing anything wrong. We cannot justify idolatry and child sacrifice for instance, but those aren't the main focus of YHWH. It's different in the NT where in Acts, Paul tells the people of Lystra that God overlooked such things in the past and tells the Greeks that God is now calling everyone to repent.

    The problem with many of our approaches is that we act like the Canaanites were under the covenant when they were not. God was indeed calling the Israelites to right behavior, but he was not calling the Canaanites to. There was no conversion effort going on. Of course, had the Israelites managed to convince all the Canaanites to join YHWH, there would be no need of the conquest per se, but that is not what was going on. Israel welcomed people who wanted to convert, but they did not aim for that.

    One area that there would be agreement on is that the term for utterly destroy does not mean in a literalistic sense. Instead, it often refers to an object set aside for a specific usage. This also gets into the concept of holiness. Holiness was not something that people earned. It was something that was conferred on to the people and it could be given to inanimate objects as well.

    Also, there is relevance for us today with this. No. It doesn't mean we go grab a sword and kill our unbelieving neighbor. Instead, it shows us how we are to really put something to death, our sinful natures. We are to be holy to the Lord and cut off all that keeps us from being holy. We are to be what God has set apart for His use. We are to identify with the new community.

    I'm really still chewing on a lot of what the Waltons say, but it is a great read and one that really does leave you questioning. I would find the Waltons anticipated my questions many many times. Though some will no doubt disagree with what is found here, all wishing to speak on the conquest period should interact with it.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    This is a real head-scratcher of a review, Nick. It seems like I'm missing a whole lot of information needed for it to make sense.
    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #3
      A lot of it I think is really hard to explain well, at least from my perspective.

      Comment


      • #4
        No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is going to drive them out before you.

        Genesis 15:16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before youwill sin against the Lord your God.

        These sins weren't against Israel either, but against God. Their sins were so grotesque that the land itself was defiled.

        Comment


        • #5
          Walton is many things, but an educated idiot is not one of them. I really recommend you go and read his book and see what he says about such passages before assuming that they're not dealt with.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
            Walton is many things, but an educated idiot is not one of them. I really recommend you go and read his book and see what he says about such passages before assuming that they're not dealt with.
            I don't always agree with Walton but he usually presents a very good case. The problem is that I find it difficult to give short summaries of what he says.


            As an aside, I've noticed in the past couple of threads you use several asterisks which often connote a footnote or something but these seem to be as superfluous as the British/Canuckistani use of extra vowels.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't use asterisks in threads....

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                I don't use asterisks in threads....
                Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                Have we got the conquest wrong?

                The link can be found here.

                ----------

                What do I think of John H.*and J. Harvey Walton's book published by IVP? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

                Anytime I receive a book by John Walton from IVP, there is cause for much rejoicing. Ever since I read*The Lost World of Genesis One I have been a major fan of Walton. That book answered so many questions I had had about Genesis 1 as it explored it from a perspective of the Ancient Near East. My rejoicing was apparent when I got this latest book.

                There have been many books written on this topic and many of them I have enjoyed, but now I have to rethink them. The Waltons bring up problems with hypotheses that we have traditionally used. What if the conquest is not about punishment for sin? What if the wrong approach is to try to look at it from the perspective of if we would call it good or not? What if we've been wrong about all of this?

                The Waltons want to start by saying that we don't need to bring in our ideas of goodness to the text. For the ancients, much of what was good was that which was orderly. Something could be said to be good if it helped to establish order to the world. The conquest can be seen as a way of establishing order as YHWH prepares to take the land for the use that he had intended it for.*

                They also look at the texts that we use to say that God was doing this for the sins of the people. Sometimes, it is for sins, but these are sins usually committed against Israel, such as 1 Sam. 15. In these cases, it is specifically said that this is what it is for.*

                In all of this, this doesn't mean that we should accept the Canaanites as just fine people that weren't doing anything wrong. We cannot justify idolatry and child sacrifice for instance, but those aren't the main focus of YHWH. It's different in the NT where in Acts, Paul tells the people of Lystra that God overlooked such things in the past and tells the Greeks that God is now calling everyone to repent.

                The problem with many of our approaches is that we act like the Canaanites were under the covenant when they were not. God was indeed calling the Israelites to right behavior, but he was not calling the Canaanites to. There was no conversion effort going on. Of course, had the Israelites managed to convince all the Canaanites to join YHWH, there would be no need of the conquest per se, but that is not what was going on. Israel welcomed people who wanted to convert, but they did not aim for that.

                One area that there would be agreement on is that the term for utterly destroy does not mean in a literalistic sense. Instead, it often refers to an object set aside for a specific usage. This also gets into the concept of holiness. Holiness was not something that people earned. It was something that was conferred on to the people and it could be given to inanimate objects as well.

                Also, there is relevance for us today with this. No. It doesn't mean we go grab a sword and kill our unbelieving neighbor. Instead, it shows us how we are to really put something to death, our sinful natures. We are to be holy to the Lord and cut off all that keeps us from being holy. We are to be what God has set apart for His use. We are to identify with the new community.

                I'm really still chewing on a lot of what the Waltons say, but it is a great read and one that really does leave you questioning. I would find the Waltons anticipated my questions many many times. Though some will no doubt disagree with what is found here, all wishing to speak on the conquest period should interact with it.

                In Christ,
                Nick Peters
                No. Not at all

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #9
                  I don't know what that is. I haven't type those out at all.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                    Sorry, but this guy is an "educated idiot".
                    That is a very shameful thing to say about such a stalwart evangelical scholar without even having read his argument first.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      That is a very shameful thing to say about such a stalwart evangelical scholar without even having read his argument first.
                      and functional origins being addressed, and so does the entire remainder of the Bible when referencing Genesis 1. The same goes for the passage regarding Adam and Eve.

                      It was either Thomas Aquinas or Augustine who said that Genesis 1 didn't mention animal diets. I'm looking for the quote now.

                      Genesis 1:30

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Cerebrum. How well do you read Hebrew?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
                          Cerebrum. How well do you read Hebrew?
                          Never mind. I forgot who I was dealing with. I'm out of here.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Cerebrum. I'd just accept what Kings Gambit said. I was skeptical at first too, but I read through the argument and it's a tough pill, but I'm really rethinking things. I will be interviewing him on my show on October 21st and I will gladly present these verses to him to get what he thinks about them, but if you're really skeptical, get the book and go through and see what he says.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them"

                              I don't think of God actually stretching out a material, physical hand. Similarly in Psalm 57:1 when David spoke of being in the shadow of God's wings this does not mean that God is some sort of winged creature.

                              The purpose of such anthropomorphic language is to describe God in terms that are more understandable to humans not that God has a bodily form.

                              Now I'm certainly not saying that it couldn't be done this way (after all God is God), but rather in instances where anthropomorphic language is employed we should proceed with caution about taking that text literally.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment

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