Only children of God are free?

[lee_merrill]

John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

I believe that only believers are free (John 8:34,36)

So then to the extent that people sin, they aren't free? ... I would only insist that people apart from Christ can do nothing but sin.

"... and whatever is not from faith is sin." (Ro 14:23)

I disagree. virtually all people in history from all religions, and faiths and even those who do not believe anything sin, good things, great things, love, sin, and do evil stuff. That is the facts of life. There is no distinct difference between the behavior of believers from different religions.

But do you agree with the principle that to the extent that people sin, they aren't free? Let's start there.

Blessings,
Lee

[Doug Shaver]

But do you agree with the principle that to the extent that people sin, they aren't free?

I regard sin as a theological concept, so I don't think it's a real thing.

I do agree that we're all morally imperfect, but that's just because moral perfection is not possible. And I don't think our imperfections have anything to do with how free we are.

[37818]

I regard sin as a theological concept, so I don't think it's a real thing.

I do agree that we're all morally imperfect, but that's just because moral perfection is not possible. And I don't think our imperfections have anything to do with how free we are.

Oh. So you do not regard lying as wrong? [Lying being a sin.](Revelation 21:8, ". . . all liars . . .") How free is someone who has to hide behind lies?

[seer]

I do agree that we're all morally imperfect, but that's just because moral perfection is not possible. And I don't think our imperfections have anything to do with how free we are.

Interesting, where does this idea of perfection come from? Why aren't we perfect just as we are?

[seer]

But do you agree with the principle that to the extent that people sin, they aren't free? Let's start there.

Blessings,
Lee

Lee, I believe men, even sinners, have a degree of moral freedom. After all they don't always go around stealing, raping, murdering.

[shunyadragon]

Interesting, where does this idea of perfection come from?

From the human perspective delusions

Why aren't we perfect just as we are?

. . . because we are all fallible humans.

[shunyadragon]

John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

But do you agree with the principle that to the extent that people sin, they aren't free? Let's start there.

Blessings,
Lee

My uncertainty with the citations is; Free from what?

It is obvious that everyone one sins, but from various Christian perspectives Christians may be freed from the consequences of sin, original sin, by forgiveness, sincere repentance, and redemption through the sacraments.

These are not my beliefs, but they may lead to a better understanding of the citations.

[siam]

John 8:34 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

But do you agree with the principle that to the extent that people sin, they aren't free? Let's start there.

Blessings,
Lee

Depends on the definition of "free" and "sin"....

If we presume "free" to mean the autonomy to make choices and sin to mean "an error/mistake"---then the two necessarily go together...
but, if we presume "free" to mean "without"/to not have---and sin to mean the the stain of original sin---then this concept is limited to the Christian framework alone---others do not share the concept....

or
If we presume sin to mean the Christian concept of "vice" (7 vice..?) and freedom to mean "the autonomy to turn away from/disincline to"...then there are similar concepts in Islam and Buddhism. Islam speaks of excessive desires (such as excessive pride, excessive anger...etc) and Buddhism speaks of (excessive) attachments--- that create constraints on human will....leading to suffering/lack of peace....

.......
by the way...What does children of God mean? does it mean "Christian"?

[lee_merrill]

And I don't think our imperfections have anything to do with how free we are.

Though sin is addicting, is it not?

I believe men, even sinners, have a degree of moral freedom. After all they don't always go around stealing, raping, murdering.

But "whatever is not of faith is sin", said Paul (Rom. 14:23)

My uncertainty with the citations is; Free from what?

Free from being a slave to sin: "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34)

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

If we presume "free" to mean the autonomy to make choices and sin to mean "an error/mistake"---then the two necessarily go together...

I'm not sure what you mean, how do they go together?

If we presume sin to mean the Christian concept of "vice" (7 vice..?) and freedom to mean "the autonomy to turn away from/disincline to"...then there are similar concepts in Islam and Buddhism.

That would be fine, but is there deliverance from sin in Islam and Buddhism? That would mean these would also be paths to God.

by the way...What does children of God mean? does it mean "Christian"?

Yes, I was just trying to pick a phrase that would be less divisive.

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

"You gotta serve somebody" (Bob Dylan)

We either serve our own desires, or some principles or persons outside ourselves.

Source: Romans 6:16-18

Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

© Copyright Original Source

And being a slave to righteousness doesn't sound like freedom, unless there is room for choices within the will of God, which I believe there is.

Blessings,
Lee

[Doug Shaver]

Oh. So you do not regard lying as wrong?

I didn't say I don't believe in a difference between right and wrong.

How free is someone who has to hide behind lies?

All behaviors, right or wrong, have consequences. Among the consequences, in either case, is a diminution of options that were available before the action was taken and become unavailable afterward.

[Doug Shaver]

Interesting, where does this idea of perfection come from?

From the same place all ideas come from: our minds.

Why aren't we perfect just as we are?

Because how we are is inconsistent with the ideas of perfection that most of us have.

[Jedidiah]

"You gotta serve somebody" (Bob Dylan)

We either serve our own desires, or some principles or persons outside ourselves.

Source: Romans 6:16-18

Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

© Copyright Original Source

And being a slave to righteousness doesn't sound like freedom, unless there is room for choices within the will of God, which I believe there is.

Blessings,
Lee

And when one actually becomes a "slave" to righteousness, one begins to learn what real freedom is.

[seer]

From the same place all ideas come from: our minds.


Because how we are is inconsistent with the ideas of perfection that most of us have.

Strange that animals like us are not satisfied with our animal behavior. Like a fish complaining that it is wet...