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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
    Isn't something sinful because God says its sinful?
    Sure. But the prophets and Jesus tell us that God judges us based on how we treat others. They don't give us arbitrary rules. Admittedly Lev has a number of rules that I'd consider arbitrary, but the usual Christian understanding of that is that they were intended as part of the covenant with the Jews, and part of the point was to separate them from Gentiles.

    Paul gives a pretty good clue in Rom 1 as to why he says what he says. To read the clues fully, it's useful to look at something like Gagnon's book on 1st Cent attitudes to homosexuality. (You presumably realize that Gagnon is a conservative.) He says that Jews considered it something among pagans, when normal sex had lost its attraction. That's exactly the context of Rom 1. Paul is explicitly talking about pagans. He also talks about giving up natural intercourse. So this is talking about Roman sexual practices that liberals would also regard as degraded.

    The other reference in Paul, and 1 Tim, are limited to one or two words whose meanings aren't entirely clear, so it's safest to assume it means the same thing as Rom 1. Particularly since 1 Cor 6:9 is also referring to behavior of pagans.

    Paul simply doesn't deal with our situation. That leaves us with Jesus' general principles of treating others right.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
      FTR, I find Scripture sufficiently clear in teaching that homosexuality (both inclination and practice) is always aberrant and sub-normal. I cannot say with such certainty that it is always "sinful."
      FTR, I agree that scripture is clear in teaching the aberrant nature of homosexuality. Sin is in what you choose not what you feel inclined towards.

      I want to add that there are all sorts of behaviors accepted by our society that are both aberrant and sinful. Still if you reject and impulse it is not sin.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
        I thought my post was reasonably clear. Any aberrant behavior that does not in some obvious way run afoul of "Treat others as you would have others treat you" is not something I can confidently regard as sinful.
        This can depend on how you want to be treated. My rule is do what is right.
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
          This can depend on how you want to be treated. My rule is do what is right.
          Likewise. "Right" means "just." Doing what is "right" is doing what is "just." Again, in practical terms, I know of no better definition of that than "Treat others as you wish to be treated."
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
            Isn't something sinful because God says its sinful?
            If He says so clearly, consistently, and unambiguously. As I indicated in Post 52, I can no longer affirm that I find that in Scripture.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            Nationalist Christian.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              I'm happy for you and your certainty. Twenty years I had a much more fundy view of Scripture and would have heartily agreed. I can no longer do so.
              Then I feel sorry for you. It's not a "fundy" view of scripture to interpret clear verses of scripture the same way the Church unanimously has over its entire history. If you find yourself coming to a different conclusion than the unanimous witness of scripture and the Church, you really should reconsider your own interpretation.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by hedrick View Post
                Sure. But the prophets and Jesus tell us that God judges us based on how we treat others. .
                That's an incredibly huge oversimplification. John says if anyone declares that Jesus didn't come in the flesh, they are anti-Christ. That has nothing to do with how we treat each other. That's only one example. There are more.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                  If He says so clearly, consistently, and unambiguously. As I indicated in Post 52, I can no longer affirm that I find that in Scripture.
                  Then you stand at odds with the entire history of the Church.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Then you stand at odds with the entire history of the Church.
                    TBH, Protestantism, taken to its extreme conclusion, doesn't care. Tradition doesn't matter - only one's interpretation does. Thankfully, most Protestants aren't that extreme.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      That's an incredibly huge oversimplification. John says if anyone declares that Jesus didn't come in the flesh, they are anti-Christ. That has nothing to do with how we treat each other. That's only one example. There are more.
                      We were referring to rules of behavior. When Jesus refers to how people are judged on their conduct, it's based on how they treat others. He also says that people are judged based on rejecting him and his message, but that wasn't relevant to the discussion.

                      He is against the Pharisees' rules, and replaces even the 10 commandments with teachings about intent.

                      There's no sign in his teaching of God making arbitrary rules. Purity rules were the Pharisees' thing, not his.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by hedrick View Post
                        We were referring to rules of behavior. When Jesus refers to how people are judged on their conduct, it's based on how they treat others. He also says that people are judged based on rejecting him and his message, but that wasn't relevant to the discussion.

                        He is against the Pharisees' rules, and replaces even the 10 commandments with teachings about intent.

                        There's no sign in his teaching of God making arbitrary rules. Purity rules were the Pharisees' thing, not his.
                        and what is arbitrary about God saying that men and women were made for each other by him and that any other union is not right? hedrick God said is was a sin and not what he made human kind for God is God you are not and you have no right to tell him he was arbitrary. he made male and female not 2 males not 2 females there was a reason. stop trying to second guess God.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Then I feel sorry for you. It's not a "fundy" view of scripture to interpret clear verses of scripture the same way the Church unanimously has over its entire history. If you find yourself coming to a different conclusion than the unanimous witness of scripture and the Church, you really should reconsider your own interpretation.
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Then you stand at odds with the entire history of the Church.
                          I'm quite fine with being a correct remnant numbering only one.
                          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                          Beige Federalist.

                          Nationalist Christian.

                          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                          Justice for Matthew Perna!

                          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            I'm quite fine with being a correct remnant numbering only one.
                            But the thing is... you aren't correct.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by hedrick View Post
                              We were referring to rules of behavior. When Jesus refers to how people are judged on their conduct, it's based on how they treat others.
                              Jesus didn't hit every topic. It's important to remember that when trying to develop a holistic view of the Bible.

                              He also says that people are judged based on rejecting him and his message, but that wasn't relevant to the discussion.

                              He is against the Pharisees' rules, and replaces even the 10 commandments with teachings about intent.

                              There's no sign in his teaching of God making arbitrary rules. Purity rules were the Pharisees' thing, not his.
                              Anyone who reads the instructions given to Moses, and accepts the trinity, knows that "purity rules" are in fact God's thing. It's when they are taken past what scripture says that causes the division between Jesus and the Pharisees' add-ons.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                Jesus didn't hit every topic.
                                The Babylon Bee has a post for that one as well: http://babylonbee.com/news/jesus-nev...home-invasion/
                                Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                                1 Corinthians 16:13

                                "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                                -Ben Witherington III

                                Comment

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