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  • #16
    Originally posted by Adrift
    While I think it's probably true that one can hold non-normative attractions, and still live a life that demonstrates fruit and can be in many ways still pleasing to God, I question whether or not that it's all that God desires for us. If we were talking about, say, those who hold non-normative desires for children, could they too live a rich and fruitful life pleasing to God as long as they walk in purity of life? Well, maybe yes, and maybe no. Is it purity of life to hold such a base attraction in the first place? I think a lot of Christians are now convinced that holding certain non-normative attractions are just the way of life for some people. That, like a physical deformity, they're just stuck with it like a curse, and I don't know if I agree with that, or that it's God's will and desire for that to be the case. We all struggle with sin, but as we mature as Christians it seems to me that we should desire to end certain of those struggles, if at all possible. That it is possible, and that we ought to seek transformation by the renewing of our minds, even it it takes divine intervention to get us there. I hurt for people who hurt, and the language I see in Article 8 is language I see among a lot of great Christian thinkers on the subject (William Lane Craig, for instance, would very much agree with this Article), but part of me feels like we give up on people who are struggling if we just tell them to (in so many words) "live with it". I don't know. I don't have all the answers, and maybe I'm wrong. I've discussed some of my thoughts on this subject here before, particularly here, where I feel I made the point better: ...
    I know this is a concern you've shared a lot, I disagree with it, and frankly the overwhelming pastoral experience with people who have these desires, which concurs with what modern day psychology finds to be the case, and matches my own experience, is that voluntarily changing these inclinations is close to being impossible. In a way it can happen, as in most cases the sexuality is not primarily of one type. So some people who lived a homosexual lifestyle were able to leave it and live a heterosexual lifestyle. Others, I know, have no ability to form romantic attraction to women, myself included, and I've been a Christian for over a decade and have only recently given up on anymore direct attempts at this.

    I personally think its better to encourage people with empowerment to take charge of their own life, to love God and pursue a holy life, and not act on these desires, break the habits and cultivate new godly virtues. Celebrate the gift of celibacy for the Kingdom of God, and other such things.

    The idea that you're not fully, or authentically, or piously a Christian if you have homosexual attractions you cannot control, is to me a ludicrous proposition.

    As for the non-sequitur about those who experience abnormal attractions to pre-teens, or those who experience ephebophilia, then its not a matter of mere guesswork to me, I know personally some with those attractions who keep it hidden, have struggled with it, and sublimated those desires in various ways. I think they should celebrated, if the subject wasn't so taboo and scandalous to people. I don't think they should be treated with deep seated suspicion as to their love of God.

    Any Christian theology that cannot deal with life-long suffering is not genuine. Even St. Paul had a "thorn in the flesh" that God refused to remove no matter how many times he asked for it.
    Last edited by Leonhard; 08-31-2017, 03:26 PM.

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    • #17
      What you want does not define you. What you actually do does so.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #18
        In general with joint statements like this, I think the usual approach is to read them as specifically as possible, meaning they only address exactly what they address. So any accusations of them implying something by omission aren't proper. If something is omitted, then its simple not something addressed by the statement, and nothing yay, or nay is implied on other statements.

        Reading it through I find nothing I could disagree with.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          I know this is a concern you've shared a lot, I disagree with it, and frankly the overwhelming pastoral experience with people who have these desires, which concurs with what modern day psychology finds to be the case, and matches my own experience, is that voluntarily changing these inclinations is close to being impossible. It can happen, an in most cases the sexuality is not primarily of one type. So some people who lived a homosexual lifestyle were able to leave it and live a heterosexual lifestyle. Others I know have no ability to form romantic attraction to women, myself included and I've been a Christian for over a decade and have only recently given up on anymore direct attempts at this.
          Pretty sure we've been over all of this before, but it seems that whenever I mention it, you intentionally misunderstand my point, argue against strawmen of your own making, or forget what I've claimed in previous threads.

          For the record, I do not think it is easy for one to alter their sexual orientation. Certainly not in the sense that it could be said that one "voluntarily" did so. As if to say, one voluntarily chose to wear a red shirt instead of a blue one. I believe people when they say they've tried desperately, for years to mentally change, and have failed. I totally 100% believe them. But I also know that there has been much work done on the subject of the mind and mindfulness. That neuroscience is finding that people have successfully been able to change deeply ingrained thoughts, behaviors, and habits through certain techniques (see the work of Dr. Jeffrey M. Schwartz). I know people (people very close to me) who weren't in the middle of the road about their non-normative orientation, but were actually gay, and who became straight (there seems to be a strong view in the LGBT community that the only people who have successfully changed their orientation are bisexuals, even if the person in question swears up and down that isn't the case). I also believe that like any good father, God would rather none of his children to be lacking in any areas of our lives. Not physically, mentally, or spiritually. I sincerely believe that he would not command us to renew our minds if it were not possible to do so. I also truly believe that all things are possible through Christ Jesus.

          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          I personally think its better to encourage people with empowerment to take charge of their own life, to love God and pursue a holy life, and not act on these desires, break the habits and cultivate new godly virtues. Celebrate the gift of celibacy for the Kingdom of God, and other such things.
          I believe these are great things to encourage in people as well. There seems to be a growing view within the Christian body, though, that healing is not possible, or is highly improbable, and that the very idea that God can heal people dangles in front of them false hope that has the potential to crush them if it does not come to pass. I reject that view, and that way of thinking. My God is bigger than that. He is the God of making the impossible possible. I do believe, however, that mature Christians must exhibit patience, and longsuffering. That even if it doesn't happen within one's lifetime, that one should desire, and continue to strive for the sound mind that God has promised. That we should always keep hope alive, even (or maybe especially) when things look completely hopeless.

          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          The idea that you're not fully, or authentically, or piously a Christian if you have homosexual attractions you cannot control, is to me a ludicrous proposition.
          That isn't the view I hold, and if anything I've stated here or anywhere else ever gave you that impression, it wasn't my intention. I have no doubt that many of my fellow brothers and sisters who struggle with a non-normative sexual attractions are often indeed, deeply and authentically pious Christians. Heck, I've known great teachers who have taught me a great deal about the Bible who struggled with homosexuality. I simply believe that there's more to life than simply shrugging one's shoulder and accepting the cards you've been dealt. Again, I believe all things are possible through Christ Jesus.

          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          As for the non-sequitur about those who experience abnormal attractions to pre-teens, or those who experience ephebophilia, then its not a matter of mere guesswork to me, I know personally some with those attractions who keep it hidden, have struggled with it, and sublimated those desires in various ways. I think they should celebrated, if the subject wasn't so taboo and scandalous to people. I don't think they should be treated with deep seated suspicion as to their love of God.
          There's been a lot of wrong usage of the phrase "non-sequitur" on these boards lately. You should reread my post. What I stated was perfectly sequitur as it was completely in line with the point I was making on the subject of the thread and the post I replied to. Also, you might want to reread the post to see if you could find anywhere where I suspected anyone's love of God. That was a strawman. What I questioned was how it could be said that one with such attractions could be said to be walking "in purity of life". I don't know what you mean by "they should celebrated" (I'm assuming you skipped some words there), but I don't think purity of life is simply living with those sort of non-normative desires as though it's just your personal burden or curse to bear, but rather, walking in purity of life means daily overcoming, or at least attempting to overcome those desires. We are not perfect beings, but we are being perfected daily.

          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          Any Christian theology that cannot deal with life-long suffering is not genuine. Even St. Paul had a "thorn in the flesh" that God refused to remove no matter how many times he asked for it.
          I honestly think that the "thorn in the flesh" example is apples and oranges. People find that passage comforting as a way to deal with certain life-long physical or psychological circumstances, and I can definitely understand and relate to that, but I think they're missing the greater context of that passage. First of all, Paul tells us that this thorn is demonic in origin. Second of all, I believe Paul names what that thorn, his weakness, was in verse 10, which is a reference back to the previous chapter when he lists his imprisonment, stripes, shipwrecks, stonings, etc. So then, the thorn wasn't physical or psychological in origin, but it had to do with people, and persecution, and it seems to be specific to Paul and to have been placed for the sake of the spreading of the Gospel message. That doesn't really relate, in my opinion, to what people who deal with non-normative sexual attraction are dealing with. To the contrary, in Romans 8:26 the Bible teaches us that the Spirit helps us in our weaknesses.
          Last edited by Adrift; 08-31-2017, 04:49 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            The Nicene Creed doesn't talk about divorce either. I guess it's too liberal.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Pretty sure we've been over all of this before,
              Yes, but I think its valuable for me to repeat these things, as I don't think you've given appropriate answers, and I don't think just because you've given a reply to me somewhere that you therefore have carte blanche to continue posting this stuff without criticism.

              For the record, I do not think it is easy for one to alter their sexual orientation. Certainly not in the sense that it could be said that one "voluntarily" did so. As if to say, one voluntarily chose to wear a red shirt instead of a blue one.
              Then we are in agreement, I certainly didn't mean 'voluntary' in that trivial sense; "I'm gay today", "I'm straight today" When I say you can voluntarily change it, I mean it in the same sense as that you can voluntarily lose weight. Say you weighed 200 pounds, and you wanted to lose 50. You could personally make a lifestyle choice, where you'd change your diet, and then over a period of months your weight would decline accordingly. Same with building muscles, you change to a higher protein diet with more calories and you go to the gym three times per week following an exercise regiment, and over time your muscles grow.

              It is possible to voluntarily change habits and certain patterns of thinging. We can retrain ourselves and how we do things, even at a fairly old age. It takes a significant amount of input. However, you have to understand. I've been down this road, for years, and didn't see a single dent. If I saw something, a shift, a slide, anything. A hint that things were changing, that it was worth all the huge amounts of mental energy spent on it, I might have continued, but there isn't anything. I'm not speaking out of personal experience because I'm offended Adrift, but because I'm the one I know best, and if what you're saying is true and that I'm not 'walking in purity' in pleasing way to God which is what I want, then I want to know why I can't.

              Imagine if you went to the gym, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year for a decade. All the others bulked up into huge beefcake, but you were still a wet noodle, even if you came home tired and lethargic, completely worked out, but weren't gaining a single bit of strength. Your machines were still on the same setting as the day you started, and any attempt to bump up the scale only meant you could do fewer reps, and you never changed from that. Even though you did everything right, ate all the right things and followed your advice from the professional trainer.

              That is not only my experience, but the experience of others I've known. And if sexual attraction is something we have a duty to change (which is what it definitely seems to me that you're implying very strongly) then why do some of us have no luck with it?

              God does not ask of people what they cannot give. That is as certain a rule of law as anything in the Bible.

              I believe people when they say they've tried desperately, for years to mentally change, and have failed. I totally 100% believe them. But I also know that there has been much work done on the subject of the mind and mindfulness. That neuroscience is finding that people have successfully been able to change deeply ingrained thoughts, behaviors, and habits through certain techniques (see the work of Dr. Jeffrey M. Schwartz).
              I want to believe you, but then I honestly don't understand the rest your points about expecting God to heal these things, and strengthening weakness, etc... that this is something a Christian should be overcoming. How can you believe these people, and believe your reading of the Bible? It just seems to me that there's an inherent conflict here.

              You believe they've tried, but because you've read something from a certain doctor you've read about, you suspect they simple did it wrongly?

              I know people (people very close to me) who weren't in the middle of the road about their non-normative orientation, but were actually gay, and who became straight (there seems to be a strong view in the LGBT community that the only people who have successfully changed their orientation are bisexuals, even if the person in question swears up and down that isn't the case).
              There is some reason for believing in the bisexual hypothesis, but I don't. As I've said many times before I think there is some fluidity to sexuality, but I see no good evidence, especially not scientific evidence that validates any treatment modality, cognitive, behavioral or the heinous torture-based aversion therapy based approaches who have any success above natural background drift or what we'd expect from bias and motivation.

              Of course it doesn't help that treatment modalities that influence sexual orientation is very taboo to research, so we might not get clear answers on this for a while. The history of psychology with respect to how they've treated gay people is a very dark chapter, and has made it something few serious researcher want to approach.

              I also believe that like any good father, God would rather none of his children to be lacking in any areas of our lives. Not physically, mentally, or spiritually. I sincerely believe that he would not command us to renew our minds if it were not possible to do so. I also truly believe that all things are possible through Christ Jesus.
              While this is true, as God is goodness itself and therefore wants everything restored fully. I think this only finds its full expression in the The Resurrection and the New Earth, where everything is made new. There are people born blind, or without limbs. Never healed in anyway. Heck we have the occasional silly atheist come by this forum who brashly ask us "Why doesn't god heal amputees?" echoes of that dumb website made long ago. Why doesn't God miraculously heal the vast majority of terminal cancers of faithful Christians? Why doesn't God heal the vast majority of congenial heart failures of faithful Christians?

              We can all agree that God only miraculously does what could not be done without His intervention those cases in rare circumstances out of His Grace and inscrutable Will. I will never understand, or even attempt to understand why one is healed and another is not. Its a mystery. I have a belief that the prayers of more virtuous people are better at moving God, but even then I'm hesitant because there's also a mystery in how the Divine Will interacts with what happens in the world.

              I do believe, that some homosexual men have experienced a miraculous change in their sexuality. I have no reason to doubt their testimony. And they are a powerful testament to the Goodness and Grace of God. I do not believe however, that failing to receive such a healing is a sign that a person is a lesser Christian or could have gotten it if they had done enough A, B, C.

              I do not believe God in any way owes us a miraculous healing, even once in our life.

              There seems to be a growing view within the Christian body, though, that healing is not possible, or is highly improbable, and that the very idea that God can heal people dangles in front of them false hope that has the potential to crush them if it does not come to pass.
              But isn't that the sensible approach to take to miraculous healings? That its rare, its up to God's Will, He doesn't owe us one, etc... We are encouraged to hope for one, even to pray for one, but there has to be acceptance of His Will for us. My nephew who has a defect in his heart might be dead in a few days, despite all my prayers for him, or the ones said here, or by the group I know in the Catholic Church or the priest who read a mass for him. I accept that. I'm not sure what else should be done. I just trust in God.

              If deep-seated homosexuality is something that takes miraculous intervention to change, then I think it would be improper to expect a miracle. Hope for one yes, keep it as a prayer intention as long as it doesn't become an obsession, yes, but beyond that, simply accept God's Will and be at peace.

              What else would you have me do?

              My God is bigger than that.
              God is God.

              There is no other God.

              That we should always keep hope alive, even (or maybe especially) when things look completely hopeless.
              Because living a peaceful life as celibates who have struggled and overcome the pull of their loins is such a horrible fate? Is it very important for a celibate man to work up a sexual appetite for women, just as he's learned to subdue his attraction for men? I'm not sure I really understand.

              Can't he simply live a humble life of prayer and contemplation, and devout worship of God? Living his life as a sacrifice, knowing its pleasing to God and knowing that in Heaven there won't be any marriage or married people, and no heterosexual people or gay people for that matter either? While we'll still be men and women in Heaven, I sincerely doubt there'll be anymore eros. Sex, that is, the act of sex those things implied, belongs only to this world after all. There won't be any procreation going on The New Earth or in Heaven. A celibates life would be an eschatological anticipation of that time.

              I don't see why that's not enough.

              That isn't the view I hold, and if anything I've stated here or anywhere else ever gave you that impression, it wasn't my intention.
              Well, having read this post and the one of the previous one, you don't seem to want to offend, but you also seem to want to have your bacon and chew it to. I certainly does come off confusing to me. You seem to want to say that there's something morally evil in having sexual attractions, yet also affirm that its no impediment to the holy Christians you know who struggle with them. You seem to want to affirm that change is so hard that you understand that many have sincerely tried, dotted all the i's, crossed all the t's and prayed all the right ways and never gotten it, but you also want to say "My God is bigger than that... He makes everything possible."

              So I don't know if you're simple voicing your own conflicting thoughts on it, or what you're doing. Honestly I don't at this point. Maybe I'm just not able to read you right. I'm a Christian, sympathetic to you, I want to understand you but if I can read you this wrong, I wonder how some other Christian would read you if they've gone through similar experiences.

              I simply believe that there's more to life than simply shrugging one's shoulder and accepting the cards you've been dealt.
              While there's a difference between defeatism, and true humility. There is such a thing as false humility that's simple a cover for sloth after all. I do believe accepting God's Will is supremely pleasing to Him. And that might involve accepting some pain in your life God has allowed to be placed there, offering that God as a sacrifice. Doing that is very hard, freely suffering out of love for God, but it's how I learned to do it. And only when I started doing that did I start to have spiritual progress.

              Again, I believe all things are possible through Christ Jesus.
              So do I. I believe people have received the charism of tongues, and were able to speak languages they didn't know to people who understood them perfectly. Many missionaries have received that gift, and I have no reason to doubt them. I have not however, gone off-road when on vacation and tried winging it with evangilizing a native. I believe gifts like that are extraordinary. Bilocation, levitation, visions, prophecies, angelic visitations, crying statues, multiplication of food, etc... all these things are above and beyond the ordinary.

              The same goes for healings. The Springs of Lourdes has millions of Catholics who visit every year. Basically all agree that they experience some form of grace there. Of that great number, despite a board of medical experts, only seventy miraculous healings have been documented. That's still an amazing treasure trove of fully medically documented terminal illnesses, there one day, completely gone the other, never to return.

              Extraordinary healings like those, are extraordinary. Its just the way it is.

              Also, you might want to reread the post to see if you could find anywhere where I suspected anyone's love of God.
              I might have misread 'walking in purity of life' then. Christ said that anyone who loved Him would obey Him, implying of course living a holy life. If you believe that this cannot be fulfilled properly if you have such attractions, then it would seem that you believe there is defective love in those Christians. I might be reading you wrong, but I'm genuinely trying to read you right. And if I'm getting you this wrong, you can bet a lot of other Christians with same sex attractions are going to read you wrong as well.

              Personally I think a distinction that has to be made to make sense of things is whether an attraction is unwanted, or whether its something actively dwelled on. Of course Catholic Moral Theology has unpacked those distinctions and any confessor worth his salt knows them, and would explain to you in pedagogical terms when certain thoughts are just buzzing flies to be waved away with a hand and not worried about, and when they enter the domain of thoughts you dwell and entertain.

              We call it scrupulosity when a penitent is anxiously worried about various involuntarily thoughts they've had. In general the presumption made is that they were involuntary.

              We'd both definitely agree that actively entertained thoughts constitute a sin.

              I don't know what you mean by "they should celebrated"
              "they should be celebrated"

              I believe anyone who had a dangerous attraction that was gaining control of their life and leading them towards sin of various kinds of depravity, whether lust, alcohol, drugs, greed, etc... and a person overcomes that, and gains control of their life with God's grace, I believe they should be celebrated. We certainly cheer on the 12 step person who celebrates being sober for twelve months. In actual reality though this is fraught with so many practical problems that its better for some people to be quiet most of the time, and for those who have certain attractions on their soul to stay perpetually silent, maybe with one or two very trusted friends as their confidants.

              but I don't think purity of life is simply living with those sort of non-normative desires as though it's just your personal burden or curse to bear, but rather, walking in purity of life means daily overcoming, or at least attempting to overcome those desires. We are not perfect beings, but we are being perfected daily.
              I would agree if you'd accept 'overcoming' as not giving into them. Or to sublimate them. Push them down. Forge new habits. Learn a way of living where you can be at peace with them. Just like people with incurable tinnitus learns to live with it, and perhaps even feel that the incessant ringing feels less over the years (I have tinnitus - thankfully a mild one in the right ear).

              Why can't that be a holy life?

              Must these men get a Edited by a Moderator when they see a woman before they've achieved 'walking in purity of life'?

              I honestly think that the "thorn in the flesh" example is apples and oranges. People find that passage comforting as a way to deal with certain life-long physical or psychological circumstances, and I can definitely understand and relate to that, but I think they're missing the greater context of that passage. First of all, Paul tells us that this thorn is demonic in origin. Second of all, I believe Paul names what that thorn, his weakness, was in verse 10, which is a reference back to the previous chapter when he lists his imprisonment, stripes, shipwrecks, stonings, etc. So then, the thorn wasn't physical or psychological in origin, but it had to do with people, and persecution, and it seems to be specific to Paul and to have been placed for the sake of the spreading of the Gospel message. That doesn't really relate, in my opinion, to what people who deal with non-normative sexual attraction are dealing with. To the contrary, in Romans 8:26 the Bible teaches us that the Spirit helps us in our weaknesses.
              I don't believe any one interpretation is the correct one. St. Augustine certainly read it as sexual temptation, Tertullian read it as a terrible migraine. I also agree that the Spirit helps us in our weakness, but since I don't think having a sexual attraction is a moral evil, if not acted on but is something wanted you move your attention away from (buzzing flies - as my confessor would call them) then being strengthened might not mean those are lessened, it might mean you get stronger at ignoring them. You're strengthened. I've certainly experienced that. In the long term, I've felt the attractions grow less, but that might just really be the natural consequences of me passing 31 in age and my sexual impulses dimming. I've never experienced God's grace in cooling the heat.

              Strengthen me. Yes. Diminishing my concupiscence. No.
              Last edited by rogue06; 10-17-2017, 09:54 AM.

              Comment


              • #22

                Progressives Appalled As Christians Affirm Doctrine Held Unanimously For 2,000 Years

                U.S.—After numerous prominent Christians and everyday believers alike signed the Nashville Statement affirming basic Christian doctrine held with rare exception for 2,000 years, progressives across the nation flooded the internet in droves to voice their horror and disgust at the shocking set of beliefs.

                “I can’t believe these people would just come out and blatantly state something Christians have unflinchingly agreed on for millennia,” one liberal Christian wrote on Twitter. “It’s absolutely beyond callous.”

                “I literally just can’t even,” she added later.

                Secular humanist scholar Zeke Reddington agreed, stating on his Patheos blog that for Christians to publicly affirm historically Christian ideas was “unthinkable.”

                “It’s 2017, for crying out loud. I can’t believe we have to deal with people who disagree with us in the current year!” he wrote in his insightful 8,000-word blog post.

                At publishing time, the many bigoted backers of the Nashville Statement had still refused to apologize for their horrific act of affirming beliefs that most progressive Christians evolved beyond at least two or three years ago.
                http://babylonbee.com/news/progressi...ly-2000-years/



                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                  Progressives Appalled As Christians Affirm Doctrine Held Unanimously For 2,000 Years

                  U.S.—After numerous prominent Christians and everyday believers alike signed the Nashville Statement affirming basic Christian doctrine held with rare exception for 2,000 years, progressives across the nation flooded the internet in droves to voice their horror and disgust at the shocking set of beliefs.

                  “I can’t believe these people would just come out and blatantly state something Christians have unflinchingly agreed on for millennia,” one liberal Christian wrote on Twitter. “It’s absolutely beyond callous.”

                  “I literally just can’t even,” she added later.

                  Secular humanist scholar Zeke Reddington agreed, stating on his Patheos blog that for Christians to publicly affirm historically Christian ideas was “unthinkable.”

                  “It’s 2017, for crying out loud. I can’t believe we have to deal with people who disagree with us in the current year!” he wrote in his insightful 8,000-word blog post.

                  At publishing time, the many bigoted backers of the Nashville Statement had still refused to apologize for their horrific act of affirming beliefs that most progressive Christians evolved beyond at least two or three years ago.
                  http://babylonbee.com/news/progressi...ly-2000-years/


                  You have to understand Sparko that a lot of clueless liberals think that Christians don't really believe what they believe. That was even a point of the show Orange is The New Black, where it turns out all the religious characters don't really believe in God or the edicts of their religion, perhaps with exception of the black woman who converted to judaism (diversity - lol), they all secretly 'know its all bull****'. There's this expectation that eventually Christian leaders will get with the times.

                  Its a sad, and a bit hillarious at times.

                  The really sad sight though are the scores of nominally christian people who attend church yearly or so, or at least for baptism, funerals and weddings... who are basically secular and don't understand 'those stuffy old pastors who won't get with the times, or those creepy fundementalists'. Sigh...
                  Last edited by Bill the Cat; 09-01-2017, 01:21 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                    Progressives Appalled As Christians Affirm Doctrine Held Unanimously For 2,000 Years

                    U.S.—After numerous prominent Christians and everyday believers alike signed the Nashville Statement affirming basic Christian doctrine held with rare exception for 2,000 years, progressives across the nation flooded the internet in droves to voice their horror and disgust at the shocking set of beliefs.

                    “I can’t believe these people would just come out and blatantly state something Christians have unflinchingly agreed on for millennia,” one liberal Christian wrote on Twitter. “It’s absolutely beyond callous.”

                    “I literally just can’t even,” she added later.

                    Secular humanist scholar Zeke Reddington agreed, stating on his Patheos blog that for Christians to publicly affirm historically Christian ideas was “unthinkable.”

                    “It’s 2017, for crying out loud. I can’t believe we have to deal with people who disagree with us in the current year!” he wrote in his insightful 8,000-word blog post.

                    At publishing time, the many bigoted backers of the Nashville Statement had still refused to apologize for their horrific act of affirming beliefs that most progressive Christians evolved beyond at least two or three years ago.
                    http://babylonbee.com/news/progressi...ly-2000-years/


                    Obviously satire but still with a great deal of truth

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Obviously satire but still with a great deal of truth
                      The Babylon Bee is 100% True Fact! You heathen!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        You have to understand Sparko that a lot of clueless liberals think that Christians don't really believe what they believe. That was even a point of the show Orange is The New Black, where it turns out all the religious characters don't really believe in God or the edicts of their religion, perhaps with exception of the black woman who converted to judaism (diversity - lol), they all secretly 'know its all bullshit'. There's this expectation that eventually Christian leaders will get with the times.

                        Its a sad, and a bit hillarious at times.

                        The really sad sight though are the scores of nominally christian people who attend church yearly or so, or at least for baptism, funerals and weddings... who are basically secular and don't understand 'those stuffy old pastors who won't get with the times, or those creepy fundementalists'. Sigh...
                        It reminds me of people like Starlight who want to tell us what Christians "really believe" or Tassman who decides that homosexuality in the bible only refers to "temple prostitution" because some progressive Christian came up with that idea a few years ago to justify their sin.

                        It always ends up people who want to excuse their sins or normalize it decide to reinterpret the bible to say something it doesn't, and disagree with several thousand years of people who know better. As if somebody living today can have special insight to upturn thousands of years of doctrine because they are so special. And what they interpret just happens to fit exactly with what the secular society accepts today. I am sure that if society gets corrupt enough to legalize bestiality and pedophilia they will find out that their interpretation of the bible supports their views - all of a sudden.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          It reminds me of people like Starlight who want to tell us what Christians "really believe" or Tassman who decides that homosexuality in the bible only refers to "temple prostitution" because some progressive Christian came up with that idea a few years ago to justify their sin.

                          It always ends up people who want to excuse their sins or normalize it decide to reinterpret the bible to say something it doesn't, and disagree with several thousand years of people who know better. As if somebody living today can have special insight to upturn thousands of years of doctrine because they are so special. And what they interpret just happens to fit exactly with what the secular society accepts today. I am sure that if society gets corrupt enough to legalize bestiality and pedophilia they will find out that their interpretation of the bible supports their views - all of a sudden.
                          If I ever truly believed that the Church was wrong on homosexuality or gender, and arguable that's where I struggle the most, I'd just give up on the Church. I'd rather be cold, than lukewarm. Sometimes I fear that those people who call themselves Christian but support gay marriage and are trying to influence their own parishes are going to have a harder time on the day of judgment, than a sincere homosexual atheist who couldn't believe in God.

                          At least I have my suspicions which of those two God would be quicker to pour out extraordinary graces on in the last moments.

                          But for the Grace of God I'm still a Catholic.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            The Babylon Bee is 100% True Fact! You heathen!
                            Didn't they once say that you preferred tofu bacon?

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              If I ever truly believed that the Church was wrong on homosexuality or gender, and arguable that's where I struggle the most, I'd just give up on the Church. I'd rather be cold, than lukewarm. Sometimes I fear that those people who call themselves Christian but support gay marriage and are trying to influence their own parishes are going to have a harder time on the day of judgment, than a sincere homosexual atheist who couldn't believe in God.

                              At least I have my suspicions which of those two God would be quicker to pour out extraordinary graces on in the last moments.

                              But for the Grace of God I'm still a Catholic.
                              yep.

                              A lot of people struggle with sin and homosexuality is an especially hard one to deal with. But God doesn't judge you on temptations and inclinations, but on actions. And he can forgive quite a bit even when someone messes up. But I think that if someone tries to justify their sins and claim they are not sins and then tries to convince everyone else to go along with it, then I think that angers God.

                              Romans 1: 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

                              I think Romans 1 is speaking directly to those kinds of people.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                That is not only my experience, but the experience of others I've known. And if sexual attraction is something we have a duty to change (which is what it definitely seems to me that you're implying very strongly) then why do some of us have no luck with it?
                                Again, I absolutely believe you when you claim that it isn't your experience. I know for a fact that it is the experience of others. I know that it is possible. Why do you and others you know have no luck? I can only guess. But I do know that it is possible, and even if it weren't, I believe one should never give up trying.

                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                God does not ask of people what they cannot give. That is as certain a rule of law as anything in the Bible.
                                Sure, which is why I know that it can be done, because God tells us that we can renew our minds.

                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                I want to believe you, but then I honestly don't understand the rest your points about expecting God to heal these things, and strengthening weakness, etc... that this is something a Christian should be overcoming. How can you believe these people, and believe your reading of the Bible? It just seems to me that there's an inherent conflict here.

                                You believe they've tried, but because you've read something from a certain doctor you've read about, you suspect they simple did it wrongly?
                                Well, not only because of something I read from a certain doctor, but again, from what I've witnessed first hand, from what I've experienced myself, and from what I believe the scriptures tell us. I don't know why so many people seem not to have success, for the same reason that I don't know why every Christian doesn't witnesses a miracle, or why all Christians can't seem to drop the habits of their old man nature even after making Christ Lord and being told to put on the new man. There may be a myriad of reasons why these things may happen, each circumstance a different case study. But that doesn't mean that I don't believe in miracles, or that people can't break off the habits of the old man.


                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                While this is true, as God is goodness itself and therefore wants everything restored fully. I think this only finds its full expression in the The Resurrection and the New Earth, where everything is made new. There are people born blind, or without limbs. Never healed in anyway. Heck we have the occasional silly atheist come by this forum who brashly ask us "Why doesn't god heal amputees?" echoes of that dumb website made long ago. Why doesn't God miraculously heal the vast majority of terminal cancers of faithful Christians? Why doesn't God heal the vast majority of congenial heart failures of faithful Christians?

                                We can all agree that God only miraculously does what could not be done without His intervention those cases in rare circumstances out of His Grace and inscrutable Will. I will never understand, or even attempt to understand why one is healed and another is not. Its a mystery. I have a belief that the prayers of more virtuous people are better at moving God, but even then I'm hesitant because there's also a mystery in how the Divine Will interacts with what happens in the world.
                                My entire point is that just because we don't see the miraculous every day doesn't mean that the Christian with congenital heart disease should just give up on his condition, and just give in to his fate. That, in my opinion, is not walking in purity. Walking in purity for the Christian with heart disease means continuing to eat healthy, exercising, meditating on the Word, praying for healing, and remaining faithful that God is willing and able to do mighty works in our lives.

                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                I do believe, that some homosexual men have experienced a miraculous change in their sexuality. I have no reason to doubt their testimony. And they are a powerful testament to the Goodness and Grace of God. I do not believe however, that failing to receive such a healing is a sign that a person is a lesser Christian or could have gotten it if they had done enough A, B, C.
                                I would appreciate it if you would stop implying that I think that gay people are "lesser Christians". It's very irritating to constantly have to fight against this strawman of my view on the subject.

                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                I do not believe God in any way owes us a miraculous healing, even once in our life.
                                I believe Jesus when he says that he will do whatever we ask in his name if it aligns with his will, and I have no reason to believe that it is not God's will that we all experience normative and healthy sexual appetites.


                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                But isn't that the sensible approach to take to miraculous healings? That its rare, its up to God's Will, He doesn't owe us one, etc... We are encouraged to hope for one, even to pray for one, but there has to be acceptance of His Will for us. My nephew who has a defect in his heart might be dead in a few days, despite all my prayers for him, or the ones said here, or by the group I know in the Catholic Church or the priest who read a mass for him. I accept that. I'm not sure what else should be done. I just trust in God.

                                If deep-seated homosexuality is something that takes miraculous intervention to change, then I think it would be improper to expect a miracle. Hope for one yes, keep it as a prayer intention as long as it doesn't become an obsession, yes, but beyond that, simply accept God's Will and be at peace.

                                What else would you have me do?
                                No, I don't believe the sensible approach to the miraculous is to not expect them, and feel we're lucky if we see them. I believe Jesus when he says that with the faith of a mustard seed we can move mountains. I believe the book of James when it says God gives generously, and that we should not doubt what we ask for in faith. That doesn't mean I believe in some sort of Benny Hinn style faith healing, but what I do believe it means is that when we come to God with our issues, we ought to faithfully come to him expecting to receive. Even if it never seems to happen. We should never give up. But to clarify, no, I don't think it necessarily takes a miracle to shrug off the behavior, and habits of our old Man nature. It's certainly not easy, and it certainly can't be done through the will alone, rather I believe it's our willful cooperation with the Holy Spirit that allows us to put off the desires of the old Man, and renew our minds to the new.

                                Ephesians 4:22 You were taught with reference to your former way of life to lay aside the old man who is being corrupted in accordance with deceitful desires, 23 to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and to put on the new man who has been created in God’s image—in righteousness and holiness that comes from truth.

                                2 Cor. 3:18 And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                Because living a peaceful life as celibates who have struggled and overcome the pull of their loins is such a horrible fate? Is it very important for a celibate man to work up a sexual appetite for women, just as he's learned to subdue his attraction for men? I'm not sure I really understand.

                                Can't he simply live a humble life of prayer and contemplation, and devout worship of God? Living his life as a sacrifice, knowing its pleasing to God and knowing that in Heaven there won't be any marriage or married people, and no heterosexual people or gay people for that matter either? While we'll still be men and women in Heaven, I sincerely doubt there'll be anymore eros. Sex, that is, the act of sex those things implied, belongs only to this world after all. There won't be any procreation going on The New Earth or in Heaven. A celibates life would be an eschatological anticipation of that time.

                                I don't see why that's not enough.
                                If that's enough for you, then by all means, hold to it. But that's not at all what you've let on. You seem to have made a couple of points pretty clear on the subject. 1.) That this wasn't enough for you for a long long time (and nor has it been enough for many other people), and even at your present state of acceptance, you'd still desire change. 2.) That most people should not even begin to attempt to change their sexual inclinations. That for the vast majority of Christians it is impossible, and that even talking about renewal of the mind in this area will be met with a lengthy challenge.


                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                Well, having read this post and the one of the previous one, you don't seem to want to offend, but you also seem to want to have your bacon and chew it to. I certainly does come off confusing to me. You seem to want to say that there's something morally evil in having sexual attractions, yet also affirm that its no impediment to the holy Christians you know who struggle with them. You seem to want to affirm that change is so hard that you understand that many have sincerely tried, dotted all the i's, crossed all the t's and prayed all the right ways and never gotten it, but you also want to say "My God is bigger than that... He makes everything possible."

                                So I don't know if you're simple voicing your own conflicting thoughts on it, or what you're doing. Honestly I don't at this point. Maybe I'm just not able to read you right. I'm a Christian, sympathetic to you, I want to understand you but if I can read you this wrong, I wonder how some other Christian would read you if they've gone through similar experiences.
                                I honestly don't think this view is that confusing. It doesn't seem accurate to me to say that it is "morally evil" to simply have unacted upon same sex attractions, but I certainly do not think it is God's desire for us to have same sex attractions. 2 Corinthians 7 tells us to purify ourselves from everything that could contaminate the body and the spirit, as we work towards complete holiness out of reverence for God. This ought to be our lifelong pursuit. That, to me, is what it means to walk in purity. It does not mean that today I'm gay, and tomorrow I'm straight. It means that we continue to work with the Holy Spirit in attaining the image of Christ.

                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                I might have misread 'walking in purity of life' then. Christ said that anyone who loved Him would obey Him, implying of course living a holy life. If you believe that this cannot be fulfilled properly if you have such attractions, then it would seem that you believe there is defective love in those Christians. I might be reading you wrong, but I'm genuinely trying to read you right. And if I'm getting you this wrong, you can bet a lot of other Christians with same sex attractions are going to read you wrong as well.
                                I think I've defined very well what I mean by walking in purity of life. It's certainly the case that one might be able to stifle that walk through error, or ignorance, or whatever and yet still passionately love God. I really don't think what I've been saying here is that complicated. I think it's much more likely that this accusation you're putting into my mouth is born out of your own personal and emotional investment in the topic. You find my view irritating, and impossible, and so are (perhaps unconsciously) casting it in as negative, or as extreme a way as possible. I hope I'm wrong about that, but that's the impression I get.

                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                I would agree if you'd accept 'overcoming' as not giving into them. Or to sublimate them. Push them down. Forge new habits. Learn a way of living where you can be at peace with them. Just like people with incurable tinnitus learns to live with it, and perhaps even feel that the incessant ringing feels less over the years (I have tinnitus - thankfully a mild one in the right ear).

                                Why can't that be a holy life?
                                Hopefully what I've written above will help clarify my stance.

                                Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                                Must these men get a Edited by a Moderator when they see a woman before they've achieved 'walking in purity of life'?
                                This is unnecessarily crass. Do you think Christian heterosexual men walk around with Edited by a Moderator whenever they see women? For that matter, are you implying that Christians struggling with homosexuality walk around with Edited by a Moderator whenever they see other men?
                                Last edited by rogue06; 10-17-2017, 09:55 AM.

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