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Response to Veretuesi post on Genesis and Fundamentalist Creationism

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  • Response to Veretuesi post on Genesis and Fundamentalist Creationism

    Originally posted by Vertetuesi View Post
    Your remarks suggest that you have never heard of the Nippur tablet, which is older than the Gilgamesh Epic and also monotheistic, implying that Gilgamesh came after Genesis, not before.
    I know about the Nippur tablet, and it dates to the same period as the Gilgamesh tablets in the same written text (~2300-2000 BCE) and with a similar Sumerian theme among thousands of tablets.

    No, the tablet is not monotheistic in the context of all the tablets found, and the archaeological evidence. It involves one of the Nippur Gods (Enki?) in a polytheistic Nippur culture of many Gods. The culture is a hierarchy of Gods with a local superior God (Enki?), at least one female God and a pantheon of lesser Gods. Nippur was a regional holy city of many Sumerian Gods and temples to these Gods.

    There is no evidence for the book of Genesis prior to ~700 BCE. The evidence indicates that the foundation of Genesis is earlier equivalent Canaanite/Ugarite myths recorded in cuneiform tablets similar to Babylonian/Sumerian older myths

    Moreover, you have not yet shown awareness of the sheer scale of demographic testimony for such a flood, coming from cultures all over the world, with great divergence from Genesis in key respects and yet also often with telling congruities such as names similar to 'Noah' for the character who survived it.
    There is no demographic testimony of a world flood nor an extensive regional flood. None of the 'local' floods in the historical and geologic record occur within the time frame of the Genesis flood, and they all reflect catastrophic 'local' river valley floods, or catastrophic hurricane floods, which still occasionally take place today. There are major 'local' floods directly related to glaciation and end of the Ice Age, but at best these events reflect global rise in the sea level.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-31-2017, 08:00 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

    There is no evidence for the book of Genesis prior to ~700 BCE.
    That is not true. Evidence for the Exodus. The exodus took place no later than 1200 BCE. From an evangelical Christian view no later than 1400 BCE. And archaeologically (and Biblically) maybe not latter than 1500 BCE.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      That is not true. Evidence for the Exodus. The exodus took place no later than 1200 BCE. From an evangelical Christian view no later than 1400 BCE. And archaeologically (and Biblically) maybe not latter than 1500 BCE.
      There is no evidence for the Book of Exodus either as mostly written by Moses. Both books are not found until after ~600 BCE.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        There is no evidence for the book of Genesis prior to ~700 BCE. The evidence indicates that the foundation of Genesis is earlier equivalent Canaanite/Ugarite myths recorded in cuneiform tablets similar to Babylonian/Sumerian older myths.
        Are there any Canaanite/Ugaritic myths that have a transcendent God creating the universe from nothing? It seems that is a crucial distinctive of Genesis.

        There is no demographic testimony of a world flood nor an extensive regional flood.
        But there is, as mentioned here:

        Source: Christian History Institute

        Blatchford suspected the historicity of Christianity because it shares much with other religions and cultures—flood stories, crucifixions, divine incarnations. Chesterton wrote that he would think it odd if other peoples did not have some “muddled version” of the true nature of things.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Blessings,
        Lee
        Last edited by lee_merrill; 09-08-2017, 09:08 PM.
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          There is no evidence for the Book of Exodus either as mostly written by Moses. Both books are not found until after ~600 BCE.
          In manuscript form, I suppose that's technically true.

          In terms of older sections in the Hebrew Bible, it's pretty widely agreed that the Song at the Sea of Exodus 15 is far earlier than 600 BCE.

          Comment


          • #6
            Flood myths collected at talkorigins...
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              Are there any Canaanite/Ugaritic myths that have a transcendent God creating the universe from nothing? It seems that is a crucial distinctive of Genesis.
              This is not remotely a crucial distinction. Your side stepping the issue of the fact that the books of Genesis do not date any early that ~600 BCE, and the many many other problems that Genesis could remotely be an accurate history of the earth and the universe.


              But there is, as mentioned here:

              Source: Christian History Institute

              Blatchford suspected the historicity of Christianity because it shares much with other religions and cultures—flood stories, crucifixions, divine incarnations. Chesterton wrote that he would think it odd if other peoples did not have some “muddled version” of the true nature of things.

              © Copyright Original Source



              This source describes vague anecdotal similarities that are considered documented local floods. You have to do better if you are going to provide reasonable evidence that represents anything more than documented local floods that have a known cause. For example: the greatest catastrophic flood of ancient China were described in detail and dated both by Chinese historical records and geologic confirmation as flood of the Huang Her (Yellow River) River. Other catastrophic floods are documented as the Yang Tze River floods.

              The Black Sea flood is documented as taking place over a period of forty plus years. and only around the periphery of the Black Sea the flood was impressive, but the local residents could have walked away from it.

              The documented glacial floods have a specific local extent of flooding, and a specific time frame, which does not fit a Biblical flood.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-09-2017, 07:15 PM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                This is not remotely a crucial distinction. Your side stepping the issue of the fact that the books of Genesis do not date any early that ~600 BCE
                I'll assume that you meant the Pentateuch or Torah here since there are no "books of Genesis." And while the oldest known written record goes back to 600 B.C., the Silver Scroll Amulets from Ketef Hinnom, the fact that they're made of silver reveals a veneration indicating that they didn't originate at that date.

                What's more, the oldest Hebrew Bible that has survived to modern times, the Aleppo Codex dates to roughly 930 A.D. but nobody is seriously suggesting that is how old the Hebrew Bible is. The point being these things are only useful in providing a minimum age, not a maximum one.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
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                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  What's more, the oldest Hebrew Bible that has survived to modern times, the Aleppo Codex dates to roughly 930 A.D. but nobody is seriously suggesting that is how old the Hebrew Bible is. The point being these things are only useful in providing a minimum age, not a maximum one.
                  Hector Avalos might, but he has a bizarre system of dating where he thinks you date things based on earliest extant manuscripts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    This is not remotely a crucial distinction. Your side stepping the issue of the fact that the books of Genesis do not date any early that ~600 BCE, and the many many other problems that Genesis could remotely be an accurate history of the earth and the universe.
                    But you sidestepped my question, are there such myths? It appears there aren't, and this argues against Genesis being inaccurate or derivative.

                    Source: Christian History Institute

                    Blatchford suspected the historicity of Christianity because it shares much with other religions and cultures—flood stories, crucifixions, divine incarnations. Chesterton wrote that he would think it odd if other peoples did not have some “muddled version” of the true nature of things.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    This source describes vague anecdotal similarities that are considered documented local floods.
                    All of them?! Talkorigins lists dozens of myths.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      I'll assume that you meant the Pentateuch or Torah here since there are no "books of Genesis." And while the oldest known written record goes back to 600 B.C., the Silver Scroll Amulets from Ketef Hinnom, the fact that they're made of silver reveals a veneration indicating that they didn't originate at that date.

                      What's more, the oldest Hebrew Bible that has survived to modern times, the Aleppo Codex dates to roughly 930 A.D. but nobody is seriously suggesting that is how old the Hebrew Bible is. The point being these things are only useful in providing a minimum age, not a maximum one.
                      This only confirms what I said. As far as the Hebrew silver scroll goes, yes it likely is not the earliest, but the Hebrew language itself is not mush older, and the fact there is absolutely nothing in terms of scripture that is older.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        But you sidestepped my question, are there such myths? It appears there aren't, and this argues against Genesis being inaccurate or derivative.

                        Source: Christian History Institute

                        Blatchford suspected the historicity of Christianity because it shares much with other religions and cultures—flood stories, crucifixions, divine incarnations. Chesterton wrote that he would think it odd if other peoples did not have some “muddled version” of the true nature of things.

                        © Copyright Original Source




                        All of them?! Talkorigins lists dozens of myths.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        Talk origins is not a reliable source concerning the nature of the floods, no reliable science here Actually, yes they are all explained. Geologic and geomorphological evidence in all these locations has documented the local nature of the floods, and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for any flood beyond these local myths, and in some cases ancient historical records dating and describing the floods. The geology and geomorphology of the world is extremely well known and it is not been difficult to go to the area or region of the myth, legend, or ancient historical record, and document the nature and extent of the floods.

                        I am a geomorphologist, and I have been to many localities including China where these ancient stories exist and seen the evidence.

                        Archaeologists, and anthropologists are a great source of published research concerning these ancient cultures. I actually personally worked with a team on projects for the Corp of Engineers investigating river valley Native American settlements. My responsibility was to document the geomorphology of the flood plains and terraces where these ancient settlements were. I found a lot of neat stuff including a piece of yellow French gun flint, but no evidence of anything more than local river floods.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-10-2017, 07:31 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          ... and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for any flood beyond these local myths, and in some cases ancient historical records dating and describing the floods. The geology and geomorphology of the world is extremely well known and it is not been difficult to go to the area or region of the myth, legend, or ancient historical record, and document the nature and extent of the floods.
                          How do you identify the location of a global flood, though?

                          Source: Folk-Lore in the Old Testament

                          The first race of people was completely destroyed because they were exceedingly wicked. The fountains of the deep opened, the rain fell in torrents, and the rivers and seas rose to cover the earth, killing all of them. Deucalion survived due to his prudence and piety and linked the first and second race of men.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          I found a lot of neat stuff including a piece of yellow French gun flint, but no evidence of anything more than local river floods.
                          Well, neat, but there is demographic evidence for a global flood.

                          And you skipped my question again, are there any Canaanite/Ugaritic myths that have a transcendent God creating the universe from nothing? It appears there aren't, and this argues against Genesis being inaccurate or derivative.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          Last edited by lee_merrill; 09-11-2017, 05:34 PM.
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            How do you identify the location of a global flood, though?
                            You don't. By definition of "global," the location was the entire world. What you have to identify is the time.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Well, neat, but there is demographic evidence for a global flood.
                              No there isn't. There can't possibly be.

                              There is demographic evidence for a population bottleneck about 10,000 years ago, but there is no way to go from the calculated population size to the reason for that population size, and there is a massive amount of evidence that it was not due to a global flood.
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

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