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Thread: Response to Veretuesi post on Genesis and Fundamentalist Creationism

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Response to Veretuesi post on Genesis and Fundamentalist Creationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Vertetuesi View Post
    Your remarks suggest that you have never heard of the Nippur tablet, which is older than the Gilgamesh Epic and also monotheistic, implying that Gilgamesh came after Genesis, not before.
    I know about the Nippur tablet, and it dates to the same period as the Gilgamesh tablets in the same written text (~2300-2000 BCE) and with a similar Sumerian theme among thousands of tablets.

    No, the tablet is not monotheistic in the context of all the tablets found, and the archaeological evidence. It involves one of the Nippur Gods (Enki?) in a polytheistic Nippur culture of many Gods. The culture is a hierarchy of Gods with a local superior God (Enki?), at least one female God and a pantheon of lesser Gods. Nippur was a regional holy city of many Sumerian Gods and temples to these Gods.

    There is no evidence for the book of Genesis prior to ~700 BCE. The evidence indicates that the foundation of Genesis is earlier equivalent Canaanite/Ugarite myths recorded in cuneiform tablets similar to Babylonian/Sumerian older myths

    Moreover, you have not yet shown awareness of the sheer scale of demographic testimony for such a flood, coming from cultures all over the world, with great divergence from Genesis in key respects and yet also often with telling congruities such as names similar to 'Noah' for the character who survived it.
    There is no demographic testimony of a world flood nor an extensive regional flood. None of the 'local' floods in the historical and geologic record occur within the time frame of the Genesis flood, and they all reflect catastrophic 'local' river valley floods, or catastrophic hurricane floods, which still occasionally take place today. There are major 'local' floods directly related to glaciation and end of the Ice Age, but at best these events reflect global rise in the sea level.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-31-2017 at 02:00 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post

    There is no evidence for the book of Genesis prior to ~700 BCE.
    That is not true. Evidence for the Exodus. The exodus took place no later than 1200 BCE. From an evangelical Christian view no later than 1400 BCE. And archaeologically (and Biblically) maybe not latter than 1500 BCE.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    That is not true. Evidence for the Exodus. The exodus took place no later than 1200 BCE. From an evangelical Christian view no later than 1400 BCE. And archaeologically (and Biblically) maybe not latter than 1500 BCE.
    There is no evidence for the Book of Exodus either as mostly written by Moses. Both books are not found until after ~600 BCE.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    There is no evidence for the book of Genesis prior to ~700 BCE. The evidence indicates that the foundation of Genesis is earlier equivalent Canaanite/Ugarite myths recorded in cuneiform tablets similar to Babylonian/Sumerian older myths.
    Are there any Canaanite/Ugaritic myths that have a transcendent God creating the universe from nothing? It seems that is a crucial distinctive of Genesis.

    There is no demographic testimony of a world flood nor an extensive regional flood.
    But there is, as mentioned here:

    Source: Christian History Institute

    Blatchford suspected the historicity of Christianity because it shares much with other religions and cultures—flood stories, crucifixions, divine incarnations. Chesterton wrote that he would think it odd if other peoples did not have some “muddled version” of the true nature of things.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    Last edited by lee_merrill; 09-09-2017 at 03:08 AM.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    There is no evidence for the Book of Exodus either as mostly written by Moses. Both books are not found until after ~600 BCE.
    In manuscript form, I suppose that's technically true.

    In terms of older sections in the Hebrew Bible, it's pretty widely agreed that the Song at the Sea of Exodus 15 is far earlier than 600 BCE.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Flood myths collected at talkorigins...

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Are there any Canaanite/Ugaritic myths that have a transcendent God creating the universe from nothing? It seems that is a crucial distinctive of Genesis.
    This is not remotely a crucial distinction. Your side stepping the issue of the fact that the books of Genesis do not date any early that ~600 BCE, and the many many other problems that Genesis could remotely be an accurate history of the earth and the universe.


    But there is, as mentioned here:

    Source: Christian History Institute

    Blatchford suspected the historicity of Christianity because it shares much with other religions and cultures—flood stories, crucifixions, divine incarnations. Chesterton wrote that he would think it odd if other peoples did not have some “muddled version” of the true nature of things.

    © Copyright Original Source



    This source describes vague anecdotal similarities that are considered documented local floods. You have to do better if you are going to provide reasonable evidence that represents anything more than documented local floods that have a known cause. For example: the greatest catastrophic flood of ancient China were described in detail and dated both by Chinese historical records and geologic confirmation as flood of the Huang Her (Yellow River) River. Other catastrophic floods are documented as the Yang Tze River floods.

    The Black Sea flood is documented as taking place over a period of forty plus years. and only around the periphery of the Black Sea the flood was impressive, but the local residents could have walked away from it.

    The documented glacial floods have a specific local extent of flooding, and a specific time frame, which does not fit a Biblical flood.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-10-2017 at 01:15 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    This is not remotely a crucial distinction. Your side stepping the issue of the fact that the books of Genesis do not date any early that ~600 BCE
    I'll assume that you meant the Pentateuch or Torah here since there are no "books of Genesis." And while the oldest known written record goes back to 600 B.C., the Silver Scroll Amulets from Ketef Hinnom, the fact that they're made of silver reveals a veneration indicating that they didn't originate at that date.

    What's more, the oldest Hebrew Bible that has survived to modern times, the Aleppo Codex dates to roughly 930 A.D. but nobody is seriously suggesting that is how old the Hebrew Bible is. The point being these things are only useful in providing a minimum age, not a maximum one.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    What's more, the oldest Hebrew Bible that has survived to modern times, the Aleppo Codex dates to roughly 930 A.D. but nobody is seriously suggesting that is how old the Hebrew Bible is. The point being these things are only useful in providing a minimum age, not a maximum one.
    Hector Avalos might, but he has a bizarre system of dating where he thinks you date things based on earliest extant manuscripts.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    This is not remotely a crucial distinction. Your side stepping the issue of the fact that the books of Genesis do not date any early that ~600 BCE, and the many many other problems that Genesis could remotely be an accurate history of the earth and the universe.
    But you sidestepped my question, are there such myths? It appears there aren't, and this argues against Genesis being inaccurate or derivative.

    Source: Christian History Institute

    Blatchford suspected the historicity of Christianity because it shares much with other religions and cultures—flood stories, crucifixions, divine incarnations. Chesterton wrote that he would think it odd if other peoples did not have some “muddled version” of the true nature of things.

    © Copyright Original Source



    This source describes vague anecdotal similarities that are considered documented local floods.
    All of them?! Talkorigins lists dozens of myths.

    Blessings,
    Lee

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