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Thread: Response to Veretuesi post on Genesis and Fundamentalist Creationism

  1. #21
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, what I meant by demographic evidence was all the flood myths.
    Misuse of demographics:

    Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=demographics+definition&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS740US740&oq=demographic&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.6469j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8



    dem·o·graph·ics noun statistical data relating to the population and particular groups within it.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Can you explain how this applies to the evidence for a world flood?
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #22
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Canaanite and Babylonian depict Creation out of darkness (Arapel) and chaos (Baad) variously translated wind? producing Raush 'moving across the deep.'
    Can you give me a reference? I would like to read such a myth.

    Misuse of demographics...
    I think the presence of a flood myth in a population could be called a demographic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Shaver
    And the place would be wherever the archeologists or geologists find evidence of a flood.
    But I don't see how to tag a local flood location to a global flood myth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    ... and there is a massive amount of evidence that it was not due to a global flood.

    I'd start with the lack of population bottlenecks in other species and the existence of ancient structures that would not have survived such an extent.
    But this is lack of evidence, I was hoping for positive evidence here.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Last edited by lee_merrill; 09-14-2017 at 10:43 PM.
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  3. #23
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Can you give me a reference? I would like to read such a myth.
    Such a myth?!?!?!? The Biblical story is such a myth.

    This is one subject to translation interpretation, and I may find a better one. The primary problem is the overwhelming similarities and similar language of older stories, and fact that they predate any Biblical text evidence by hundreds and over a thousand years..

    The problem remains there does not exist any evidence whatsoever of the Genesis nor Exodus scripture prior to ~600 BCE,

    Source: [url

    https://bible.org/article/wrath-god-new-testament-never-against-his-new-covenant-community][/url]
    The Creation Story

    I now want to attempt to do an analysis and an explanation of the creation myth to anyone is unfamiliar with the Canaanite cosmology, or is just curious.

    "Before highest heaven had its name, before the earth below was called into being, and the primeval Arapel, the cloudy darkness; and chaos, Baad, the wind which blew; they were mingling together with no limit. And Baad produced Ruach, from him Ruach emerged, and was moving over the deep."

    This is the beginning of all things according to the Canaanite creation story. The entire world was once only Arapel and Baad. Arapel is a word meaning 'cloudy darkness', while Baad means 'wind'. These things were for many ages with no limit and mingling together. Darkness in Near Eastern cosmologies is not the absense of light. Darkness is a type of thick black cloud which covers all things. There is a 'place' or celestial treasure-room for darkness just like there is for snow and hail. The gods can release this darkness from the storerooms and it will cover the earth. But now Baad has produced Ruach, which is another type of wind. But this wind is different. It does not mix with the darkness, but instead blows it all away, revealing light.


    "Their mingling was Teshuqah, who was the offspring of them both, and Baad knew not of what he had done."

    Teshuqah means 'Desire', and the desire to rule over and to govern. Now creation 'wants' to occur, but curiously is without thought and doesn't understand what it is doing.

    "And the earth was made from the dirt of the desert; with the mud of the waters the earth was formed; and out of this came every germ of creation. "

    The entire earth is pictured as a barren wasteland, like a desert. It is made of a kind of mud or wet sand, made wet by the waters of the deep which cover the earth. There is no dry land yet. The whole of the earth is covered in a fathomless ocean (the abyss). Heaven and earth do not yet exist.

    "Then were created those which had no sensation, the earliest ones were called into being. Ages increased, then the Zaphashamim were created, the observers of heaven, and they were formed like the shape of an egg."


    The Zapahashamim are the 'watchers of heaven', though it is unknown exactly what they are. In any case, some sort of intelligent life has now appeared. Some think the Zaphashamim are like celestial birds which fly through the highest heavens, but it is unknown.

    "Then Arapel, the cloudy darkness, burst into light, heavenly light, and both sea and land became heated. And arose the winds, arose the clouds, and there were floods of the waters of heaven. Came forth East-Wind and South-Wind, and they were in the midst of heaven. Then came North-Wind and West-Wind, the winds were called forth, and they met there above."


    Now the dark cloud has been blown away, and gathered into some secret places, from where it can still be unleashed. Light has now appeared. The clouds and winds appear. Winds in the Near East are like cherubim which fly through the sky and caused winds by the beating of their wings. The winds are blowing across the watery deep.

    "Then Kol-piakha, the great wind of heaven, went forward to Bahu, his wife, and knew her then. "

    Kol-piakha is a great wind, and his consort Bahu is the desolate wasteland. When the wind meets with the chaotic wasteland, the dark waste, it produces newer things.

    "Ages increased, then Ulom and Kadmon were called into being. "

    Ulom means 'time', which I will discuss in another post or video. But time plays an important role in all of the Canaanite creation myths. It is the driving force of creation, now things can finally occur. It also means that this period was a time of great antiquity, but now that time exists, events can occur (they couldn't before). Kadmon is linked to the east, the direction of the rising of the sun, where all things have their beginning and all things their end. Creation is a cyclical process, rather than linear. Interestingly, both Ulom and Kadmon are males (Kadmon is bisexual), so by the meeting of time and beginning, more things are created.

    "Long were the days, then Qen and Qenat were created."


    Qen and Qenat are linked to genes, beginnings, origins. Now all things will descend from them.

    "The days became longer, then there came forth Ur, the son of Qen, and Ec their son, and holy Lehobah."

    © Copyright Original Source



    I think the presence of a flood myth in a population could be called a demographic.
    Not remotely how demografic is properly used. It is not truly evidence for floods, because demographic, because by definition it does not propose does not include any substantial interpretation of any evidence for the flood only the supposed people involved, which is terribly weak for an argument.

    Only evidence of a local flood to that location as per the geologic and geomorphologic evidence. As for example in China; The flood is dated in Chinese literature and astronomical reference, and later documented as a catastrophic river flood date confirmed by geologic methods to the time of the historical record.

    But I don't see how to tag a local flood location to a global flood myth.
    You cannot, because the local floods are dated and confirmed as local floods at different times, There is no evidence of these floods extended beyond the flood evidence of the time the local flood was reported in ancient records.

    A myth is a myth including the Babylonian, Canaanite, Ugarit cuneiform records which predate the Bible, and the represent the direct text similarities that described the flood.

    But this is lack of evidence, I was hoping for positive evidence here.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The positive evidence is conclusive. The hills, plains and mountains above the flood plains coastal areas, coastal inundation, and outside the glacial out wash show absolutely no evidence of greater floods of regional nor global proportions. They show millions of years of gradual erosion and cutting of river valleys through the natural process of meandering rivers, ox bows, terraces, deep soil formation in soils of great plains of the world, gradual progressive uplift of mountains with the gradual erosion of the mountains deposited the sediment in river valleys, ocean rift valley spreading that can be measured today and correlates to the evidence ocean floor spreading over millions of years.

    Deuteronomy 33:15 . . . with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills . . .

    The only argument you have is the falsifiable hypothesis of uniformitarianism is false, and the problem is that every research project, theory and hypothesis that tests this has not found it false.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-15-2017 at 01:37 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  4. #24
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I'd start with the lack of population bottlenecks in other species and the existence of ancient structures that would not have survived such an extent.
    But this is lack of evidence, I was hoping for positive evidence here.
    The existence of ancient structures is positive evidence that there has not been a recent global flood.
    JohnMartin: "My assertions are fact. They are so fact that even when you deny them, you assert them by implication as shown above.
    Hansgeorg: "3½ is not a number"
    37818: "What makes you think you are self aware?"
    granpa: "we are sons of noah even though noah lived long before the first hominids "

  5. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  6. #25
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I think the presence of a flood myth in a population could be called a demographic.
    It is a demographic. It's not demographic evidence for a global flood - especially one that differs from that described by the myth.
    JohnMartin: "My assertions are fact. They are so fact that even when you deny them, you assert them by implication as shown above.
    Hansgeorg: "3½ is not a number"
    37818: "What makes you think you are self aware?"
    granpa: "we are sons of noah even though noah lived long before the first hominids "

  7. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  8. #26
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The primary problem is the overwhelming similarities and similar language of older stories, and fact that they predate any Biblical text evidence by hundreds and over a thousand years.
    But this is not creation from nothing, I do believe this is a (critical) Biblical distinctive.

    The problem remains there does not exist any evidence whatsoever of the Genesis nor Exodus scripture prior to ~600 BCE,
    That's pretty good for an ancient text, the earliest Homeric papyri is from the third century BCE.

    It is not truly evidence for floods, because demographic, because by definition it does not propose does not include any substantial interpretation of any evidence for the flood only the supposed people involved, which is terribly weak for an argument.
    I think it's a good indication of a real event, if people of every description seem to remember it.

    The positive evidence is conclusive. The hills, plains and mountains above the flood plains coastal areas, coastal inundation, and outside the glacial out wash show absolutely no evidence of greater floods of regional nor global proportions. They show millions of years of gradual erosion and cutting of river valleys through the natural process of meandering rivers, ox bows, terraces, deep soil formation in soils of great plains of the world, gradual progressive uplift of mountains with the gradual erosion of the mountains deposited the sediment in river valleys, ocean rift valley spreading that can be measured today and correlates to the evidence ocean floor spreading over millions of years.
    Well, I have some evidence, you have some evidence, I think we'll declare this a stand-off.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  9. #27
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    The existence of ancient structures is positive evidence that there has not been a recent global flood.
    Which ancient structures did you mean, though?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  10. #28
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But this is not creation from nothing, I do believe this is a (critical) Biblical distinctive.
    Your grabbing at needles in haystack that do not exist.

    Not distinctive at all when you consider the wording and terminology was very similar, and no evidence of earlier Hebrew scripture.

    That's pretty good for an ancient text, the earliest Homeric papyri is from the third century BCE.
    Unfortunately this has nothing to do with your argument for an earlier independent Genesis and Exodus without any supporting evidence, and it very late in terms of the dates of Babylonian, Ugarit, and Canaanite cuneiform tablets.

    I think it's a good indication of a real event, if people of every description seem to remember it.
    Unfortunately there is no link between the evidence of the individual events. The overwhelming evidence has determined these events as individual local events at different places and different times.

    Well, I have some evidence, you have some evidence, . [/QUOTE]

    You have not presented any evidence of a global event.

    Still waiting . . .

    . . . I think we'll declare this a stand-off.
    . . . and Napoleon won the Battle of Waterloo.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-15-2017 at 11:34 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  11. #29
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post


    Well, I have some evidence, you have some evidence, I think we'll declare this a stand-off.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    You have moved on, but there is a problem that you are missing or more likely avoiding concerning the many local floods you desire to connect as one global flood.The boundaries of all these floods is well known and well defined excluding the fact that they could be connected into one global, nor even an extensive regional flood.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  12. #30
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, I have some evidence, you have some evidence, I think we'll declare this a stand-off.
    You can declare that, but the rest of us can see you've been routed.
    JohnMartin: "My assertions are fact. They are so fact that even when you deny them, you assert them by implication as shown above.
    Hansgeorg: "3½ is not a number"
    37818: "What makes you think you are self aware?"
    granpa: "we are sons of noah even though noah lived long before the first hominids "

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