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Response to Veretuesi post on Genesis and Fundamentalist Creationism

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    You don't. By definition of "global," the location was the entire world. What you have to identify is the time.
    Yes, but if you are calling all these myths local floods, you also need a place.

    Originally posted by Roy
    No there isn't. There can't possibly be.
    Well, what I meant by demographic evidence was all the flood myths.

    ... and there is a massive amount of evidence that it was not due to a global flood.
    And what would the best of that evidence be?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #17
      [QUOTE=lee_merrill;474185]How do you identify the location of a global flood, though?

      Source: Folk-Lore in the Old Testament

      The first race of people was completely destroyed because they were exceedingly wicked. The fountains of the deep opened, the rain fell in torrents, and the rivers and seas rose to cover the earth, killing all of them. Deucalion survived due to his prudence and piety and linked the first and second race of men.

      © Copyright Original Source



      This is the problem of the claim of world flood, which there is absolutely no evidence. A catastrophic flooding of a river valley would appear to be global to local regional culture. The claims of floods in the Tigris Euphrates Valley which there are documented catastrophic river floods that correspond to Babylonian, Ugarit, and Canaanite Scriptures.

      Well, neat, but there is demographic evidence for a global flood.
      You have presented none so far. Still waiting . . .


      And you skipped my question again, are there any Canaanite/Ugaritic myths that have a transcendent God creating the universe from nothing? It appears there aren't, and this argues against Genesis being inaccurate or derivative.
      I have and it is a meaningless difference. Canaanite and Babylonian depict Creation out of darkness (Arapel) and chaos (Baad) variously translated wind? producing Raush 'moving across the deep.'

      The narratives remain very very similar, and the fact remains there is absolutely no Hebrew scripture before ~600 BCE, and the result contained many derivations and linguistic similarity to Canaanite and Babylonian literature.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        Yes, but if you are calling all these myths local floods, you also need a place.
        The place was local catastrophic floods like those in the river valleys like the Tigris Euphrates rivers.

        Well, what I meant by demographic evidence was all the flood myths.
        What did you mean?!?, when there is no evidence of a global flood.

        And what would the best of that evidence be?

        Blessings,
        Lee
        There is no evidence of flood deposition beyond the river valleys, glacial out wash plains, Tidal wave deposition, and regional sea level rise like that of the Black Sea caused by the melting of the glaciers (ah. . . no mention of glaciers in Genesis?).

        The evidence of river valley flooding no matter how catastrophic it appeared to the local residents, show no more than alluvial deposition along the rivers involved. The glacial catastrophic floods were local and short lived, and involved distinct glacial scared detritus and deposition of out wash plains, and river valley fill. The catastrophic Tidal wave floods involved distinctive local deposition like those observe in recent tidal wave history. The rise in sea level flooding like the Black Sea and the Persian gulf are not considered catastrophic, but impressive, but took place over a period of time like 40 to several hundred years, if that quickly.

        Still waiting for demographic evidence for a world flood.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-12-2017, 09:19 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          Yes, but if you are calling all these myths local floods, you also need a place.
          Sure. And the place would be wherever the archeologists or geologists find evidence of a flood.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Well, what I meant by demographic evidence was all the flood myths.
            So either you don't know what 'demographic' means - or 'evidence' - or you've adopted a Humpty-Dumptyesque approach to vocabulary.
            And what would the best of that evidence be?
            I'd start with the lack of population bottlenecks in other species and the existence of ancient structures that would not have survived such an extent. But since by 'evidence' you may mean 'myth', I see no point in elaborating.
            Last edited by Roy; 09-13-2017, 07:05 AM.
            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              Well, what I meant by demographic evidence was all the flood myths.
              Misuse of demographics:

              Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=demographics+definition&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS740US740&oq=demographic&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.6469j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8



              dem·o·graph·ics noun statistical data relating to the population and particular groups within it.

              © Copyright Original Source



              Can you explain how this applies to the evidence for a world flood?
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                Canaanite and Babylonian depict Creation out of darkness (Arapel) and chaos (Baad) variously translated wind? producing Raush 'moving across the deep.'
                Can you give me a reference? I would like to read such a myth.

                Misuse of demographics...
                I think the presence of a flood myth in a population could be called a demographic.

                Originally posted by Doug Shaver
                And the place would be wherever the archeologists or geologists find evidence of a flood.
                But I don't see how to tag a local flood location to a global flood myth.

                Originally posted by Roy
                ... and there is a massive amount of evidence that it was not due to a global flood.

                I'd start with the lack of population bottlenecks in other species and the existence of ancient structures that would not have survived such an extent.
                But this is lack of evidence, I was hoping for positive evidence here.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                Last edited by lee_merrill; 09-14-2017, 05:43 PM.
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  Can you give me a reference? I would like to read such a myth.
                  Such a myth?!?!?!? The Biblical story is such a myth.

                  This is one subject to translation interpretation, and I may find a better one. The primary problem is the overwhelming similarities and similar language of older stories, and fact that they predate any Biblical text evidence by hundreds and over a thousand years..

                  The problem remains there does not exist any evidence whatsoever of the Genesis nor Exodus scripture prior to ~600 BCE,

                  Source: [url

                  https://bible.org/article/wrath-god-new-testament-never-against-his-new-covenant-community][/url]
                  The Creation Story

                  I now want to attempt to do an analysis and an explanation of the creation myth to anyone is unfamiliar with the Canaanite cosmology, or is just curious.

                  "Before highest heaven had its name, before the earth below was called into being, and the primeval Arapel, the cloudy darkness; and chaos, Baad, the wind which blew; they were mingling together with no limit. And Baad produced Ruach, from him Ruach emerged, and was moving over the deep."

                  This is the beginning of all things according to the Canaanite creation story. The entire world was once only Arapel and Baad. Arapel is a word meaning 'cloudy darkness', while Baad means 'wind'. These things were for many ages with no limit and mingling together. Darkness in Near Eastern cosmologies is not the absense of light. Darkness is a type of thick black cloud which covers all things. There is a 'place' or celestial treasure-room for darkness just like there is for snow and hail. The gods can release this darkness from the storerooms and it will cover the earth. But now Baad has produced Ruach, which is another type of wind. But this wind is different. It does not mix with the darkness, but instead blows it all away, revealing light.


                  "Their mingling was Teshuqah, who was the offspring of them both, and Baad knew not of what he had done."

                  Teshuqah means 'Desire', and the desire to rule over and to govern. Now creation 'wants' to occur, but curiously is without thought and doesn't understand what it is doing.

                  "And the earth was made from the dirt of the desert; with the mud of the waters the earth was formed; and out of this came every germ of creation. "

                  The entire earth is pictured as a barren wasteland, like a desert. It is made of a kind of mud or wet sand, made wet by the waters of the deep which cover the earth. There is no dry land yet. The whole of the earth is covered in a fathomless ocean (the abyss). Heaven and earth do not yet exist.

                  "Then were created those which had no sensation, the earliest ones were called into being. Ages increased, then the Zaphashamim were created, the observers of heaven, and they were formed like the shape of an egg."


                  The Zapahashamim are the 'watchers of heaven', though it is unknown exactly what they are. In any case, some sort of intelligent life has now appeared. Some think the Zaphashamim are like celestial birds which fly through the highest heavens, but it is unknown.

                  "Then Arapel, the cloudy darkness, burst into light, heavenly light, and both sea and land became heated. And arose the winds, arose the clouds, and there were floods of the waters of heaven. Came forth East-Wind and South-Wind, and they were in the midst of heaven. Then came North-Wind and West-Wind, the winds were called forth, and they met there above."


                  Now the dark cloud has been blown away, and gathered into some secret places, from where it can still be unleashed. Light has now appeared. The clouds and winds appear. Winds in the Near East are like cherubim which fly through the sky and caused winds by the beating of their wings. The winds are blowing across the watery deep.

                  "Then Kol-piakha, the great wind of heaven, went forward to Bahu, his wife, and knew her then. "

                  Kol-piakha is a great wind, and his consort Bahu is the desolate wasteland. When the wind meets with the chaotic wasteland, the dark waste, it produces newer things.

                  "Ages increased, then Ulom and Kadmon were called into being. "

                  Ulom means 'time', which I will discuss in another post or video. But time plays an important role in all of the Canaanite creation myths. It is the driving force of creation, now things can finally occur. It also means that this period was a time of great antiquity, but now that time exists, events can occur (they couldn't before). Kadmon is linked to the east, the direction of the rising of the sun, where all things have their beginning and all things their end. Creation is a cyclical process, rather than linear. Interestingly, both Ulom and Kadmon are males (Kadmon is bisexual), so by the meeting of time and beginning, more things are created.

                  "Long were the days, then Qen and Qenat were created."


                  Qen and Qenat are linked to genes, beginnings, origins. Now all things will descend from them.

                  "The days became longer, then there came forth Ur, the son of Qen, and Ec their son, and holy Lehobah."

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  I think the presence of a flood myth in a population could be called a demographic.
                  Not remotely how demografic is properly used. It is not truly evidence for floods, because demographic, because by definition it does not propose does not include any substantial interpretation of any evidence for the flood only the supposed people involved, which is terribly weak for an argument.

                  Only evidence of a local flood to that location as per the geologic and geomorphologic evidence. As for example in China; The flood is dated in Chinese literature and astronomical reference, and later documented as a catastrophic river flood date confirmed by geologic methods to the time of the historical record.

                  But I don't see how to tag a local flood location to a global flood myth.
                  You cannot, because the local floods are dated and confirmed as local floods at different times, There is no evidence of these floods extended beyond the flood evidence of the time the local flood was reported in ancient records.

                  A myth is a myth including the Babylonian, Canaanite, Ugarit cuneiform records which predate the Bible, and the represent the direct text similarities that described the flood.

                  But this is lack of evidence, I was hoping for positive evidence here.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  The positive evidence is conclusive. The hills, plains and mountains above the flood plains coastal areas, coastal inundation, and outside the glacial out wash show absolutely no evidence of greater floods of regional nor global proportions. They show millions of years of gradual erosion and cutting of river valleys through the natural process of meandering rivers, ox bows, terraces, deep soil formation in soils of great plains of the world, gradual progressive uplift of mountains with the gradual erosion of the mountains deposited the sediment in river valleys, ocean rift valley spreading that can be measured today and correlates to the evidence ocean floor spreading over millions of years.

                  Deuteronomy 33:15 . . . with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills . . .

                  The only argument you have is the falsifiable hypothesis of uniformitarianism is false, and the problem is that every research project, theory and hypothesis that tests this has not found it false.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-14-2017, 08:37 PM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    I'd start with the lack of population bottlenecks in other species and the existence of ancient structures that would not have survived such an extent.
                    But this is lack of evidence, I was hoping for positive evidence here.
                    The existence of ancient structures is positive evidence that there has not been a recent global flood.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      I think the presence of a flood myth in a population could be called a demographic.
                      It is a demographic. It's not demographic evidence for a global flood - especially one that differs from that described by the myth.
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        The primary problem is the overwhelming similarities and similar language of older stories, and fact that they predate any Biblical text evidence by hundreds and over a thousand years.
                        But this is not creation from nothing, I do believe this is a (critical) Biblical distinctive.

                        The problem remains there does not exist any evidence whatsoever of the Genesis nor Exodus scripture prior to ~600 BCE,
                        That's pretty good for an ancient text, the earliest Homeric papyri is from the third century BCE.

                        It is not truly evidence for floods, because demographic, because by definition it does not propose does not include any substantial interpretation of any evidence for the flood only the supposed people involved, which is terribly weak for an argument.
                        I think it's a good indication of a real event, if people of every description seem to remember it.

                        The positive evidence is conclusive. The hills, plains and mountains above the flood plains coastal areas, coastal inundation, and outside the glacial out wash show absolutely no evidence of greater floods of regional nor global proportions. They show millions of years of gradual erosion and cutting of river valleys through the natural process of meandering rivers, ox bows, terraces, deep soil formation in soils of great plains of the world, gradual progressive uplift of mountains with the gradual erosion of the mountains deposited the sediment in river valleys, ocean rift valley spreading that can be measured today and correlates to the evidence ocean floor spreading over millions of years.
                        Well, I have some evidence, you have some evidence, I think we'll declare this a stand-off.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Roy View Post
                          The existence of ancient structures is positive evidence that there has not been a recent global flood.
                          Which ancient structures did you mean, though?

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            But this is not creation from nothing, I do believe this is a (critical) Biblical distinctive.
                            Your grabbing at needles in haystack that do not exist.

                            Not distinctive at all when you consider the wording and terminology was very similar, and no evidence of earlier Hebrew scripture.

                            That's pretty good for an ancient text, the earliest Homeric papyri is from the third century BCE.
                            Unfortunately this has nothing to do with your argument for an earlier independent Genesis and Exodus without any supporting evidence, and it very late in terms of the dates of Babylonian, Ugarit, and Canaanite cuneiform tablets.

                            I think it's a good indication of a real event, if people of every description seem to remember it.
                            Unfortunately there is no link between the evidence of the individual events. The overwhelming evidence has determined these events as individual local events at different places and different times.

                            Well, I have some evidence, you have some evidence, . [/QUOTE]

                            You have not presented any evidence of a global event.

                            Still waiting . . .

                            . . . I think we'll declare this a stand-off.
                            . . . and Napoleon won the Battle of Waterloo.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-15-2017, 06:34 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post


                              Well, I have some evidence, you have some evidence, I think we'll declare this a stand-off.

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              You have moved on, but there is a problem that you are missing or more likely avoiding concerning the many local floods you desire to connect as one global flood.The boundaries of all these floods is well known and well defined excluding the fact that they could be connected into one global, nor even an extensive regional flood.
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                Well, I have some evidence, you have some evidence, I think we'll declare this a stand-off.
                                You can declare that, but the rest of us can see you've been routed.
                                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                                Comment

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