Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 69

Thread: Response to Veretuesi post on Genesis and Fundamentalist Creationism

  1. #11
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    11,972
    Amen (Given)
    1060
    Amen (Received)
    759
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    I'll assume that you meant the Pentateuch or Torah here since there are no "books of Genesis." And while the oldest known written record goes back to 600 B.C., the Silver Scroll Amulets from Ketef Hinnom, the fact that they're made of silver reveals a veneration indicating that they didn't originate at that date.

    What's more, the oldest Hebrew Bible that has survived to modern times, the Aleppo Codex dates to roughly 930 A.D. but nobody is seriously suggesting that is how old the Hebrew Bible is. The point being these things are only useful in providing a minimum age, not a maximum one.
    This only confirms what I said. As far as the Hebrew silver scroll goes, yes it likely is not the earliest, but the Hebrew language itself is not mush older, and the fact there is absolutely nothing in terms of scripture that is older.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #12
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    11,972
    Amen (Given)
    1060
    Amen (Received)
    759
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But you sidestepped my question, are there such myths? It appears there aren't, and this argues against Genesis being inaccurate or derivative.

    Source: Christian History Institute

    Blatchford suspected the historicity of Christianity because it shares much with other religions and cultures—flood stories, crucifixions, divine incarnations. Chesterton wrote that he would think it odd if other peoples did not have some “muddled version” of the true nature of things.

    © Copyright Original Source




    All of them?! Talkorigins lists dozens of myths.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Talk origins is not a reliable source concerning the nature of the floods, no reliable science here Actually, yes they are all explained. Geologic and geomorphological evidence in all these locations has documented the local nature of the floods, and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for any flood beyond these local myths, and in some cases ancient historical records dating and describing the floods. The geology and geomorphology of the world is extremely well known and it is not been difficult to go to the area or region of the myth, legend, or ancient historical record, and document the nature and extent of the floods.

    I am a geomorphologist, and I have been to many localities including China where these ancient stories exist and seen the evidence.

    Archaeologists, and anthropologists are a great source of published research concerning these ancient cultures. I actually personally worked with a team on projects for the Corp of Engineers investigating river valley Native American settlements. My responsibility was to document the geomorphology of the flood plains and terraces where these ancient settlements were. I found a lot of neat stuff including a piece of yellow French gun flint, but no evidence of anything more than local river floods.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-11-2017 at 01:31 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #13
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    178
    Amen (Given)
    61
    Amen (Received)
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    ... and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for any flood beyond these local myths, and in some cases ancient historical records dating and describing the floods. The geology and geomorphology of the world is extremely well known and it is not been difficult to go to the area or region of the myth, legend, or ancient historical record, and document the nature and extent of the floods.
    How do you identify the location of a global flood, though?

    Source: Folk-Lore in the Old Testament

    The first race of people was completely destroyed because they were exceedingly wicked. The fountains of the deep opened, the rain fell in torrents, and the rivers and seas rose to cover the earth, killing all of them. Deucalion survived due to his prudence and piety and linked the first and second race of men.

    © Copyright Original Source



    I found a lot of neat stuff including a piece of yellow French gun flint, but no evidence of anything more than local river floods.
    Well, neat, but there is demographic evidence for a global flood.

    And you skipped my question again, are there any Canaanite/Ugaritic myths that have a transcendent God creating the universe from nothing? It appears there aren't, and this argues against Genesis being inaccurate or derivative.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Last edited by lee_merrill; 09-11-2017 at 11:34 PM.

  4. #14
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    San Bernardino, Calif.
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,200
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    How do you identify the location of a global flood, though?
    You don't. By definition of "global," the location was the entire world. What you have to identify is the time.

  5. #15
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,455
    Amen (Given)
    352
    Amen (Received)
    1009
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, neat, but there is demographic evidence for a global flood.
    No there isn't. There can't possibly be.

    There is demographic evidence for a population bottleneck about 10,000 years ago, but there is no way to go from the calculated population size to the reason for that population size, and there is a massive amount of evidence that it was not due to a global flood.
    Mountain Man destroys his own argument:
    "[Glenn Miller's essay] has more than enough facts and data to support the conclusion that Luke's history was bang-on accurate with regards to who conducted the census and when."
    "...there are historical points on which the Bible can't be tested for one reason or another, for instance, cases where the data is incomplete, such as the Lukan census which has a number of plausible solutions but is, at worst, untestable due to a lack of conclusive evidence."

  6. #16
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    178
    Amen (Given)
    61
    Amen (Received)
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Shaver View Post
    You don't. By definition of "global," the location was the entire world. What you have to identify is the time.
    Yes, but if you are calling all these myths local floods, you also need a place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    No there isn't. There can't possibly be.
    Well, what I meant by demographic evidence was all the flood myths.

    ... and there is a massive amount of evidence that it was not due to a global flood.
    And what would the best of that evidence be?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  7. #17
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    11,972
    Amen (Given)
    1060
    Amen (Received)
    759
    [QUOTE=lee_merrill;474185]How do you identify the location of a global flood, though?

    Source: Folk-Lore in the Old Testament

    The first race of people was completely destroyed because they were exceedingly wicked. The fountains of the deep opened, the rain fell in torrents, and the rivers and seas rose to cover the earth, killing all of them. Deucalion survived due to his prudence and piety and linked the first and second race of men.

    © Copyright Original Source



    This is the problem of the claim of world flood, which there is absolutely no evidence. A catastrophic flooding of a river valley would appear to be global to local regional culture. The claims of floods in the Tigris Euphrates Valley which there are documented catastrophic river floods that correspond to Babylonian, Ugarit, and Canaanite Scriptures.

    Well, neat, but there is demographic evidence for a global flood.
    You have presented none so far. Still waiting . . .


    And you skipped my question again, are there any Canaanite/Ugaritic myths that have a transcendent God creating the universe from nothing? It appears there aren't, and this argues against Genesis being inaccurate or derivative.
    I have and it is a meaningless difference. Canaanite and Babylonian depict Creation out of darkness (Arapel) and chaos (Baad) variously translated wind? producing Raush 'moving across the deep.'

    The narratives remain very very similar, and the fact remains there is absolutely no Hebrew scripture before ~600 BCE, and the result contained many derivations and linguistic similarity to Canaanite and Babylonian literature.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  8. #18
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Hillsborough, NC
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    11,972
    Amen (Given)
    1060
    Amen (Received)
    759
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes, but if you are calling all these myths local floods, you also need a place.
    The place was local catastrophic floods like those in the river valleys like the Tigris Euphrates rivers.

    Well, what I meant by demographic evidence was all the flood myths.
    What did you mean?!?, when there is no evidence of a global flood.

    And what would the best of that evidence be?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    There is no evidence of flood deposition beyond the river valleys, glacial out wash plains, Tidal wave deposition, and regional sea level rise like that of the Black Sea caused by the melting of the glaciers (ah. . . no mention of glaciers in Genesis?).

    The evidence of river valley flooding no matter how catastrophic it appeared to the local residents, show no more than alluvial deposition along the rivers involved. The glacial catastrophic floods were local and short lived, and involved distinct glacial scared detritus and deposition of out wash plains, and river valley fill. The catastrophic Tidal wave floods involved distinctive local deposition like those observe in recent tidal wave history. The rise in sea level flooding like the Black Sea and the Persian gulf are not considered catastrophic, but impressive, but took place over a period of time like 40 to several hundred years, if that quickly.

    Still waiting for demographic evidence for a world flood.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-13-2017 at 03:19 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. #19
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    San Bernardino, Calif.
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,200
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes, but if you are calling all these myths local floods, you also need a place.
    Sure. And the place would be wherever the archeologists or geologists find evidence of a flood.

  10. #20
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,455
    Amen (Given)
    352
    Amen (Received)
    1009
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, what I meant by demographic evidence was all the flood myths.
    So either you don't know what 'demographic' means - or 'evidence' - or you've adopted a Humpty-Dumptyesque approach to vocabulary.
    And what would the best of that evidence be?
    I'd start with the lack of population bottlenecks in other species and the existence of ancient structures that would not have survived such an extent. But since by 'evidence' you may mean 'myth', I see no point in elaborating.
    Last edited by Roy; 09-13-2017 at 01:05 PM.
    Mountain Man destroys his own argument:
    "[Glenn Miller's essay] has more than enough facts and data to support the conclusion that Luke's history was bang-on accurate with regards to who conducted the census and when."
    "...there are historical points on which the Bible can't be tested for one reason or another, for instance, cases where the data is incomplete, such as the Lukan census which has a number of plausible solutions but is, at worst, untestable due to a lack of conclusive evidence."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •