Originally posted by shunyadragon
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Response to Veretuesi post on Genesis and Fundamentalist Creationism
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. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostYou have no evidence for either of those books being written such a late date. The exodus having taken place before 1500 BCE. And there is evidence to believe that. The walls of Jericho in 1995 were dated to have fell before 1500 BCE.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostIn what year, according to the Bible, did Joshua attack the city?Last edited by 37818; 09-20-2017, 08:48 PM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostYou have no evidence for either of those books being written such a late date. The exodus having taken place before 1500 BCE. And there is evidence to believe that. The walls of Jericho in 1995 were dated to have fell before 1500 BCE.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe only text known dates after ~600 BCE. There is no evidence for the text of Exodus and Genesis before the date. Where is there any early text of Exodus? The claim of any evidence that exodus took place is highly anecdotal and interpretive of evidence that does not fit the description in the Bible. Your date is conjecture, and there are several proposed dates for the Exodus, which all represent conjecture.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostAbout 40 years after the exodus. Acts 13:18-19. Based on when Solomon began to build the temple 1012 BCE. 4 years after he began to reign (1 Kings 6:1). King David 's reign was 40 years (1Kings 2:11.) King Soul 40 years (Acts 13:21). The judges 450 years (Acts 13:20). Those numbers date back to 1586 BCE for the exodus. So that attack would be after 1546 BCE.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostIf you mean extant texts, then that's definitely true. Just because the extant manuscripts are from the DSS doesn't mean they weren't written earlier.
I believe the current evidence and most scholars agree that Genesis is an evolved text not of one author, beginning from Babylonian, Canaanite/Ugarit texts found in cuneiform tablets, and Hebrew oral traditions. The Hebrew written language is also evolved from Canaanite/Ugarit resulting in the Book of Genesis and Exodus after ~600 BCE. The problem with both Genesis and Exodus is not only the absolute lack of earlier text, but the lack of any corroborating evidence of these writings prior to ~600 BCE being other than Babylonian and Canaanite/Ugarit origins.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostNot really. The Bible says that the exodus took place 480 years before Solomon started the Temple, so around the year 1440, presuming you hold to the traditional chronology of Biblical rulers. Jericho's walls had been long gone by that time, as per Kenyon's work.
And that number is more in agreement with other evidence.
. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostGood. Now, you said, "The walls of Jericho in 1995 were dated to have fell before 1500 BCE." Please tell me about the tests that made that determination.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...-Evidence.aspxLast edited by 37818; 09-21-2017, 08:36 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe only text known dates after ~600 BCE. There is no evidence for the text of Exodus and Genesis before the date. Where is there any early text of Exodus? The claim of any evidence that exodus took place is highly anecdotal and interpretive of evidence that does not fit the description in the Bible. Your date is conjecture, and there are several proposed dates for the Exodus, which all represent conjecture.
2) The various dates are not "conjecture", but are calculated from numbers given in the biblical text.
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Originally posted by psstein View PostNot really. The Bible says that the exodus took place 480 years before Solomon started the Temple, so around the year 1440, presuming you hold to the traditional chronology of Biblical rulers. Jericho's walls had been long gone by that time, as per Kenyon's work.
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Originally posted by 37818 View Postpsstein makes mention of Kenyon's work with the carbon dating where, "Jericho's walls had been long gone by that time" of the exodus being in 1496 BCE. Using the 480 years from 1 Kings 6:1.
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...-Evidence.aspx
However, I am skeptical of her confidence that the site was NOT occupied at the traditional date of its destruction. Bryant Wood has done some careful pottery analysis, and sees evidence that the site WAS occupied at this time (see the link that 37818 gave above).
(A number of years ago I tried to re-date the destruction from a small piece of wood from Jericho that I obtained from Bryant Wood, but it was too contaminated. The dates got older as I went deeper, to about 1000 AD, and the dates never leveled off.)
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostGood. Now, you said, "The walls of Jericho in 1995 were dated to have fell before 1500 BCE." Please tell me about the tests that made that determination.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThis sort of true, but academic scholarship does no work with speculation, and relying on internal evidence and justification is generally not accepted except by apologists.
Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI believe the current evidence and most scholars agree that Genesis is an evolved text not of one author, beginning from Babylonian, Canaanite/Ugarit texts found in cuneiform tablets, and Hebrew oral traditions. The Hebrew written language is also evolved from Canaanite/Ugarit resulting in the Book of Genesis and Exodus after ~600 BCE. The problem with both Genesis and Exodus is not only the absolute lack of earlier text, but the lack of any corroborating evidence of these writings prior to ~600 BCE being other than Babylonian and Canaanite/Ugarit origins.
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