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Response to Veretuesi post on Genesis and Fundamentalist Creationism

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  • #31
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    There is no evidence for the Book of Exodus either as mostly written by Moses. Both books are not found until after ~600 BCE.
    You have no evidence for either of those books being written such a late date. The exodus having taken place before 1500 BCE. And there is evidence to believe that. The walls of Jericho in 1995 were dated to have fell before 1500 BCE.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      You have no evidence for either of those books being written such a late date. The exodus having taken place before 1500 BCE. And there is evidence to believe that. The walls of Jericho in 1995 were dated to have fell before 1500 BCE.
      The only text known dates after ~600 BCE. There is no evidence for the text of Exodus and Genesis before the date. Where is there any early text of Exodus? The claim of any evidence that exodus took place is highly anecdotal and interpretive of evidence that does not fit the description in the Bible. Your date is conjecture, and there are several proposed dates for the Exodus, which all represent conjecture.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        The walls of Jericho in 1995 were dated to have fell before 1500 BCE.
        In what year, according to the Bible, did Joshua attack the city?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
          In what year, according to the Bible, did Joshua attack the city?
          About 40 years after the exodus. Acts 13:18-19. Based on when Solomon began to build the temple 1012 BCE. 4 years after he began to reign (1 Kings 6:1). King David 's reign was 40 years (1Kings 2:11.) King Soul 40 years (Acts 13:21). The judges 450 years (Acts 13:20). Those numbers date back to 1586 BCE for the exodus. So that attack would be after 1546 BCE.
          Last edited by 37818; 09-20-2017, 08:48 PM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            You have no evidence for either of those books being written such a late date. The exodus having taken place before 1500 BCE. And there is evidence to believe that. The walls of Jericho in 1995 were dated to have fell before 1500 BCE.
            Not really. The Bible says that the exodus took place 480 years before Solomon started the Temple, so around the year 1440, presuming you hold to the traditional chronology of Biblical rulers. Jericho's walls had been long gone by that time, as per Kenyon's work.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              The only text known dates after ~600 BCE. There is no evidence for the text of Exodus and Genesis before the date. Where is there any early text of Exodus? The claim of any evidence that exodus took place is highly anecdotal and interpretive of evidence that does not fit the description in the Bible. Your date is conjecture, and there are several proposed dates for the Exodus, which all represent conjecture.
              If you mean extant texts, then that's definitely true. Just because the extant manuscripts are from the DSS doesn't mean they weren't written earlier.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                About 40 years after the exodus. Acts 13:18-19. Based on when Solomon began to build the temple 1012 BCE. 4 years after he began to reign (1 Kings 6:1). King David 's reign was 40 years (1Kings 2:11.) King Soul 40 years (Acts 13:21). The judges 450 years (Acts 13:20). Those numbers date back to 1586 BCE for the exodus. So that attack would be after 1546 BCE.
                Good. Now, you said, "The walls of Jericho in 1995 were dated to have fell before 1500 BCE." Please tell me about the tests that made that determination.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by psstein View Post
                  If you mean extant texts, then that's definitely true. Just because the extant manuscripts are from the DSS doesn't mean they weren't written earlier.
                  This sort of true, but academic scholarship does no work with speculation, and relying on internal evidence and justification is generally not accepted except by apologists.

                  I believe the current evidence and most scholars agree that Genesis is an evolved text not of one author, beginning from Babylonian, Canaanite/Ugarit texts found in cuneiform tablets, and Hebrew oral traditions. The Hebrew written language is also evolved from Canaanite/Ugarit resulting in the Book of Genesis and Exodus after ~600 BCE. The problem with both Genesis and Exodus is not only the absolute lack of earlier text, but the lack of any corroborating evidence of these writings prior to ~600 BCE being other than Babylonian and Canaanite/Ugarit origins.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by psstein View Post
                    Not really. The Bible says that the exodus took place 480 years before Solomon started the Temple, so around the year 1440, presuming you hold to the traditional chronology of Biblical rulers. Jericho's walls had been long gone by that time, as per Kenyon's work.
                    1 Kings 6:1 in the LXX has 440 years. Acts 13:18-22 with 1 Kings 2:11, 40 + 450 + 40 + 40 = 570. A 90 to 130 year discrepancy exists between the numbers. The variant reading 480 & 440 is in evidence of a textual problem. Chronologists are cited in Adam Clarke's commentary to propose values ranging between 330 to 672 years for that number. I think Acts 13:18-22 with 1 Kings 2:11 gives us a more accurate number of 570.

                    And that number is more in agreement with other evidence.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                      Good. Now, you said, "The walls of Jericho in 1995 were dated to have fell before 1500 BCE." Please tell me about the tests that made that determination.
                      psstein makes mention of Kenyon's work with the carbon dating where, "Jericho's walls had been long gone by that time" of the exodus being in 1496 BCE. Using the 480 years from 1 Kings 6:1.

                      http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...-Evidence.aspx
                      Last edited by 37818; 09-21-2017, 08:36 AM.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        The only text known dates after ~600 BCE. There is no evidence for the text of Exodus and Genesis before the date. Where is there any early text of Exodus? The claim of any evidence that exodus took place is highly anecdotal and interpretive of evidence that does not fit the description in the Bible. Your date is conjecture, and there are several proposed dates for the Exodus, which all represent conjecture.
                        1) Exodus contains numerous Egyptian names and locations, most of which would have been forgotten by 600 BC.
                        2) The various dates are not "conjecture", but are calculated from numbers given in the biblical text.
                        "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by psstein View Post
                          Not really. The Bible says that the exodus took place 480 years before Solomon started the Temple, so around the year 1440, presuming you hold to the traditional chronology of Biblical rulers. Jericho's walls had been long gone by that time, as per Kenyon's work.
                          Yes, the traditional date for the Exodus is about 1440-1450 BC. The alternative date which is held by some is about 1270 BC. The earlier date given by 37818 (1580-1590 BC) is new to me; I haven't looked into the basis for this.
                          "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            psstein makes mention of Kenyon's work with the carbon dating where, "Jericho's walls had been long gone by that time" of the exodus being in 1496 BCE. Using the 480 years from 1 Kings 6:1.

                            http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...-Evidence.aspx
                            Kenyon did very good work and was careful with the radiocarbon dates. This was early in the days of radiocarbon; the lab later revised the dates slightly, but this did not affect Kenyon's conclusions. I am fairly confident that the charcoal that she dated was dated correctly.

                            However, I am skeptical of her confidence that the site was NOT occupied at the traditional date of its destruction. Bryant Wood has done some careful pottery analysis, and sees evidence that the site WAS occupied at this time (see the link that 37818 gave above).

                            (A number of years ago I tried to re-date the destruction from a small piece of wood from Jericho that I obtained from Bryant Wood, but it was too contaminated. The dates got older as I went deeper, to about 1000 AD, and the dates never leveled off.)
                            "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Doug Shaver View Post
                              Good. Now, you said, "The walls of Jericho in 1995 were dated to have fell before 1500 BCE." Please tell me about the tests that made that determination.
                              Here is the link where the C14 dating is discussed: http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...t-Jericho.aspx
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                This sort of true, but academic scholarship does no work with speculation, and relying on internal evidence and justification is generally not accepted except by apologists.
                                Or classicists, or actually most scholars of the ancient world. Internal evidence is critical to the dating of most ancient materials. Nobody would try to fix the dates of Sennacherib's reign based on evidence external to Assyrian archives.

                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                I believe the current evidence and most scholars agree that Genesis is an evolved text not of one author, beginning from Babylonian, Canaanite/Ugarit texts found in cuneiform tablets, and Hebrew oral traditions. The Hebrew written language is also evolved from Canaanite/Ugarit resulting in the Book of Genesis and Exodus after ~600 BCE. The problem with both Genesis and Exodus is not only the absolute lack of earlier text, but the lack of any corroborating evidence of these writings prior to ~600 BCE being other than Babylonian and Canaanite/Ugarit origins.
                                It depends what you mean by "evolved text." If you mean a completed text, yes, the Pentateuch probably isn't compiled until the Persian period. That's not really controversial among mainstream scholars. The reasons for that belief, however, are more based on what we can glean from the text itself, rather than some sort of external evidence. Obviously, there are sources that date prior to the Persian period, though.

                                Comment

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