Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)

[seer]

Yes, but your view does seem like it is required to think about a principle in order for it to be. That such principles exist in the mind.

Blessings,
Lee

Well of course Lee, these principles exist in the mind of God, or in our minds. Moral principles only exist in moral and rational minds - where else could they exist?

[seer]

On the premise that there is no God. They do exist. Not just because we have minds to realize them.

That is a mere assertion, how do moral principles exist apart from moral and rational minds? Rocks, the laws of physics, suns, distance, gravity etc... all can exist apart from any mind - how does that work with moral principles? Be specific please.

[lee_merrill]

Well of course Lee, these principles exist in the mind of God, or in our minds. Moral principles only exist in moral and rational minds - where else could they exist?

Well, they could be self-existent. But what if no one (for the sake of argument) thinks of a moral principle. Does it therefore not exist?

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

Well, they could be self-existent. But what if no one (for the sake of argument) thinks of a moral principle. Does it therefore not exist?

Blessings,
Lee

Lee, the question is how can moral principles self-exist? What does that even mean? The ideal "murder is wrong" is floating behind Mars?

[Tassman]

Well of course Lee, these principles exist in the mind of God, or in our minds. Moral principles only exist in moral and rational minds - where else could they exist?

There’s no good reason to think God exists therefore moral principles must exist only in the mind of man. And, since cooperative group behaviour is common among our fellow mammals there’s every reason to think this instinct is intrinsic to our brain biology and did not come about because of moral reasoning or religion.

Lee, the question is how can moral principles self-exist? What does that even mean? The ideal "murder is wrong" is floating behind Mars?

One could make the argument that morals exist eternally in some sort of Platonic heaven as per Plato's argument that non-physical (but substantial) forms (or ideas) represent the most accurate reality. But there's no credible reason to think this, especially when our moral principles can be better explained via natural selection'.

[37818]

On the premise that there is no God. They do exist. Not just because we have minds to realize them.

That is a mere assertion, how do moral principles exist apart from moral and rational minds?

Do moral and rational minds objectively exist? If yes, then objective morality exists in order for moral and rational minds to discover. If moral and rational minds do not objectively exist. Then you are right.

Rocks, the laws of physics, suns, distance, gravity etc... all can exist apart from any mind - how does that work with moral principles? Be specific please.

What makes anything good? Either there is no such thing as good. Or good is part of our objective reality. It is behavior which requires minds.

[seer]

Do moral and rational minds objectively exist? If yes, then objective morality exists in order for moral and rational minds to discover. If moral and rational minds do not objectively exist. Then you are right.

That makes no sense, it does not follow that because we think morally that therefore objective morality exists, that is a logical leap. I prefer steak to chicken - does that make it true that steak is objectively better than chicken?

What makes anything good? Either there is no such thing as good. Or good is part of our objective reality. It is behavior which requires minds.

Good is what conforms to the law and commands of God.

[37818]

That makes no sense, it does not follow that because we think morally that therefore objective morality exists, that is a logical leap. I prefer steak to chicken - does that make it true that steak is objectively better than chicken?

Either good is an objective reality or there is no such thing as good.

Good is what conforms to the law and commands of God.

On the premise there is no God. You have not shown that premise is impossible. You are arguing good is only by fiat. Good is by the whim of a none existent God.

[seer]

Either good is an objective reality or there is no such thing as good.


On the premise there is no God. You have not shown that premise is impossible. You are arguing good is only by fiat. Good is by the whim of a none existent God.

Well of course, if there is no God then ethics are relative - to the individual, culture or society. What else could there be?

[lee_merrill]

Lee, the question is how can moral principles self-exist? What does that even mean?

From the dictionary: self-ex·ist·ent, ADJECTIVE: existing independently of other beings or causes.

So moral principles are uncaused, and they exist as principles.

But I need to know here, what if no one (for the sake of argument) thinks of a moral principle. Does it therefore not exist?

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

But I need to know here, what if no one (for the sake of argument) thinks of a moral principle. Does it therefore not exist?

Blessings,
Lee

Yes Lee, if there are no minds to hold moral principles then those principles do not exist. How could they exist without minds?

[Tassman]

Well of course, if there is no God then ethics are relative - to the individual, culture or society. What else could there be?

They are naturally built into us, because those instincts, which form the basis upon which we build our moral codes, were beneficial to the breeding and survival of our species as a social species. This is the origin of morality, not God.

[seer]

They are naturally built into us, because those instincts, which form the basis upon which we build our moral codes, were beneficial to the breeding and survival of our species as a social species. This is the origin of morality, not God.

Yes as the desires to steal, rape, murder, lie, be selfish, etc... are also naturally built into us. But we were discussing "objective morality."

[lee_merrill]

Yes Lee, if there are no minds to hold moral principles then those principles do not exist.

But let's say no one thinks of a moral principle, does it therefore not exist?

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

But let's say no one thinks of a moral principle, does it therefore not exist?

Blessings,
Lee

Correct - it does not exist. If we were all still apes there would be no moral principles. The only place they could still exist would be in the mind of God.