Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostChimps are not moral, they act on instinct. They do not conceptualize or understand moral principles.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, let's take one example, "do not steal". I could see how fitness (reproductive success) would be improved by stealing, and this happens a lot in the animal kingdom, but this is a moral principle. And it doesn't seem like one that would easily evolve.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo God did not create these morals, they are eternal like God?
Again, how do morals exist, where do they exist?
That doesn't mean that all our dreams influence behavior.
But you are suggesting something different - that they are self-existent, how is that possible, where do they exist apart from a mind?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThe evidence concerning primates does not support your assertion.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostBut the higher primates also have a sense of reciprocity, e.g. chimpanzees remember who did them favours and who did them wrong and reward or punish them accordingly.
Best wishes,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostAnd I repeat that they are self-existent. They also do not have a location somewhere.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostBut I still hold that such higher primates only act according to their impulses, "do not steal" is not one of their principles.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostBut I still hold that such higher primates only act according to their impulses, "do not steal" is not one of their principles.
Best wishes,
Lee
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIn fact do not steal is a principle among Chimps only when comes to stealing from the offended chimp. Also cooperation is rewarded and freeloaders are punished.
Bands of chimpanzees violently kill individuals from neighboring groups in order to expand their own territory, according to a 10-year study of a chimp community in Uganda that provides the first definitive evidence for this long-suspected function of this behavior.
University of Michigan primate behavioral ecologist John Mitani's findings are published in the June 22 issue of Current Biology.
During a decade of study, the researchers witnessed 18 fatal attacks and found signs of three others perpetrated by members of a large community of about 150 chimps at Ngogo, Kibale National Park.
Then in the summer of 2009, the Ngogo chimpanzees began to use the area where two-thirds of these events occurred, expanding their territory by 22 percent. They traveled, socialized and fed on their favorite fruits in the new region.
"When they started to move into this area, it didn't take much time to realize that they had killed a lot of other chimpanzees there," Mitani said. "Our observations help to resolve long-standing questions about the function of lethal intergroup aggression in chimpanzees."
Mitani is the James N. Spuhler Collegiate Professor in the Department of Anthropology. His co-authors are David Watts, an anthropology professor at Yale University, and Sylvia Amsler, a lecturer in anthropology at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock. Amsler worked on this project as a graduate student at U-M.
Chimpanzees (along with bonobos) are humans' closest living relatives. Anthropologists have long known that they kill their neighbors, and they suspected that they did so to seize their land.
https://phys.org/news/2010-06-chimpanzees.html#jCp
Animal coercive sex
It has been noted that behavior resembling rape in humans is observed in the animal kingdom, including ducks and geese, bottlenose dolphins, and chimpanzees. Indeed, in orangutans, close human relatives, copulations of this nature may account for up to half of all observed matings. Such behaviors, referred to as 'forced copulations', involve an animal being approached and sexually penetrated as it struggles or attempts to escape.
Sexual Coercion
Male chimpanzees, like other male mammals, exhibit patterns of behavior toward females that disarm females' resistance to mating. These behaviors may include physical force and qualify in human terms as rape or sexual assault, or they may be more subtle or indirect, as when males engage in activities that partition females from other males. Direct sexual coercion includes a male keeping an ovulating female to himself, which limits sperm competition. An indirect form of sexual coercion is males killing infant babies that he is fairly sure aren't his own. This may be an effort to spur the mother into becoming fertile again so that he can mate with her. Female chimpanzees also kill the babies of other chimp mothers.
http://sciencing.com/chimpanzee-mati...s-6703991.htmlLast edited by seer; 09-17-2017, 04:50 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWe are speaking of chimps in the wild, not controlled situation:
So chimpanzees regularly kill each other, steal each others territory and practice rape.
The controlled conditions do not detract from the conclusions of two independent research projects. More details here: http://www.pnas.org/content/104/32/13046.full
Again . . .
Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-17-2017, 06:33 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Primates in the wild commonly demonstrate cooperative behavior, and more specifically cooperative learned behavior shared within the primate community, and associated primitive tool making, which varies from primate communities. This behavior cannot be remotely described as 'impulse' instinctive behavior.
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThis is also true of humans in wild situations like our contemporary civilizations, which is the part of the point that primate behavior has many similarities with human behavior, but in a more primitive form. This same punishment for theft, and cooperation has been observed in the wild. The research is valid, and done in controlled conditions.Last edited by seer; 09-17-2017, 07:08 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostShuny, no one is arguing that certain species don't cooperate, but that is mere instinct, and it does not tell us what is right or wrong. They are not acting, as human morality and law suggest, on ethical abstracts. Yes chimpanzees share, but they also rape, they also kill that take each others territory. A monkey will never attain the moral abstract thinking of humans, because as your own religion teaches it is the rational soul that separates us from the animals:http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/c/BW...=highlight#gr4
Your abusive unethical selective citation of Baha'i scripture to justify your agenda continues unabated as you do with all others who disagree with your agenda. Yes, we both believe that humans have a rational soul, but that is not the issue of this thread.Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-17-2017, 07:27 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI cited specific scientific research that demonstrates cooperative social behavior in primates in the wild and controlled conditions that cannot be only attributed to instinct nor simply 'impulsive' behavior as the same behavior in humans cannot be attributed to instinct.
Your abusive unethical selective citation of Baha'i scripture to justify your agenda continues unabated as you do with all others who disagree with your agenda. Yes, we both believe that humans have a rational soul, but that is not the issue of this thread.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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