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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    Nonsense, there is no evidence that apes can or do think in abstract moral principles.
    I have presented evidence that primates have primitive social behaviors, such as cooperation, and punishment for theft and more that cannot be explained by simple instinct nor impulse as some assert, and you chose to ignore it.

    No, the issue of this thread is objective ethical principles (do they exist and where). And how is it unethical to quote your own religion - that teaches that the rational soul is necessary for ALL knowledge.[/QUOTE]

    True, the rational souls is necessary for ALL knowledge once the first human had a soul, but nonetheless this does not preclude morals and ethics, and social behavior evolving as humans as they physically evolved, and the Baha'i writings does consider the mind as separate from the soul and possibly capable of having evolved social behavior, morals and ethics independent of the soul.

    Remember the Baha'i writings are specifically clear that the understanding of the writings MUST be interpreted in the light of the evolving knowledge of science.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-17-2017, 01:57 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      True, the rational souls is necessary for ALL knowledge once the first human had a soul, but nonetheless this does not preclude morals and ethics, and social behavior evolving as humans as they physically evolved, and the Baha'i writings does consider the mind as separate from the soul and possibly capable of having evolved social behavior, morals and ethics independent of the soul.

      Remember the Baha'i writings are specifically clear that the understanding of the writings MUST be interpreted in the light of the evolving knowledge of science.
      Shuny, can animals ever evolve, morally and ethically, as humans did without the rational soul?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Shuny, can animals ever evolve, morally and ethically, as humans did without the rational soul?
        Yes. I believe science has overwhelming evidence that the human species evolved with and among the primates for millions of years including the evolution of the brain therefore the mind. God determines the course of Creation and evolution of our spiritual and physical nature not you nor I.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-17-2017, 03:07 PM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Since you can not show how they exist (apart form minds), and that they have no spacial location, how is this any more than an assertion?
          Well, I believe that moral laws are not arbitrary, and thus they are unchangeable, and thus they are eternal. That's pretty close to self-existent, IMHO. And if a forgotten dream can exist, doesn't that argue against your view here?

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            So does the human primate act according to its impulses but their higher intelligence enables their “impulses” to be conceptualised into a formal system of morality. As for “stealing”, those higher up the hierarchical scale would thump those lower down the scale if they stole from them...a more primitive means of maintaining communal Law and Order, where everybody knows their place.
            There is an essential difference in denying yourself because you know it's right, and denying yourself because of fear of retribution, though.

            Best wishes,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              Well, I believe that moral laws are not arbitrary, and thus they are unchangeable, and thus they are eternal. That's pretty close to self-existent, IMHO. And if a forgotten dream can exist, doesn't that argue against your view here?

              Blessings,
              Lee
              Lee, a forgotten dream doesn't exist. If it is hidden in our memory it would only still exist in our minds. And yes I agree that moral law is not arbitrary because it is sourced in God's unchangeable moral character. I give God the glory for an unchangeable ethical rule, what do you give glory to?
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                There is an essential difference in denying yourself because you know it's right, and denying yourself because of fear of retribution, though.
                Isn’t that why Christians deny themselves...for fear of eternal retribution?

                We deny ourselves because we are a social species and genetically predisposed to live in community. For a social species such as us the benefits of being part of an altruistic group outweigh the benefits of individualism.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  I agree that moral law is not arbitrary because it is sourced in God's unchangeable moral character. I give God the glory for an unchangeable ethical rule, what do you give glory to?
                  Oh really! Where do you get to know about this "unchangeable moral character" of his, the bible? This presupposes both scriptural inerrancy and the truth of orthodox Christianity's beliefs. There’s no good reason for such presuppositions. Biblical arguments are weak.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    God determines the course of Creation and evolution of our spiritual and physical nature not you nor I.
                    Right, and according to your religion God made humans different by creating them in His image and giving them a rational soul, so that we can discover and understand ethical abstracts and act on them.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      Oh really! Where do you get to know about this "unchangeable moral character" of his, the bible? This presupposes both scriptural inerrancy and the truth of orthodox Christianity's beliefs. There’s no good reason for such presuppositions. Biblical arguments are weak.
                      Hey Homer, I was speaking to a fellow Christian - go back to your sand box...
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Lee, a forgotten dream doesn't exist. If it is hidden in our memory it would only still exist in our minds.
                        But its effects persist, thus the dream is part of reality.

                        And yes I agree that moral law is not arbitrary because it is sourced in God's unchangeable moral character. I give God the glory for an unchangeable ethical rule, what do you give glory to?
                        I give glory to God for embodying goodness itself.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          Isn’t that why Christians deny themselves...for fear of eternal retribution?
                          Not at their best, no, they deny themselves out of love for God, for the love of goodness.

                          We deny ourselves because we are a social species and genetically predisposed to live in community.
                          Well, I don't know that anyone has found an altruistic gene yet.

                          For a social species such as us the benefits of being part of an altruistic group outweigh the benefits of individualism.
                          But denying myself goes against my impulses, it doesn't seem like evolution is just programming my impulses.

                          Best wishes,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            But its effects persist, thus the dream is part of reality.
                            No Lee, there are dreams that are completely forgotten and have no further effect. And yes a dream is part of reality, the reality of the mind. Where dreams, like ethics are born.


                            I give glory to God for embodying goodness itself.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            Why - since there is an external standard that He didn't create and has to up too.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Not at their best, no, they deny themselves out of love for God, for the love of goodness.
                              Everyone is acculturated by and to societal values, some more successfully than others, and although theists like to attribute these values to a deity there’s no reason to do so.

                              Well, I don't know that anyone has found an altruistic gene yet.
                              Or a “god” gene! This is merely the nature vs. nurture argument.

                              But denying myself goes against my impulses, it doesn't seem like evolution is just programming my impulses.
                              As a member of a social species you benefit from being a part of a community. This requires the restraint of individual selfishness. It’s clearly evolved behaviour and we see the precursors of such behaviour among the other primates.
                              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Hey Homer, I was speaking to a fellow Christian - go back to your sand box...
                                I'm asking a question you have yet to answer despite being asked several times: Again: "Where do you get to know about this "unchangeable moral character" of God, the bible? This presupposes both scriptural inerrancy and the truth of orthodox Christianity's beliefs. There’s no good reason for such presuppositions. Biblical arguments are weak.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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