Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)

[lee_merrill]

... let's say no one thinks of a moral principle, does it therefore not exist?

Correct - it does not exist. If we were all still apes there would be no moral principles. The only place they could still exist would be in the mind of God.

So now let's say everyone stops thinking of a moral principle, does it cease to exist?

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

They are naturally built into us, because those instincts, which form the basis upon which we build our moral codes, were beneficial to the breeding and survival of our species as a social species. This is the origin of morality, not God.

Morality however often goes against our inclinations, do not steal, do not lie, etc.

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

So now let's say everyone stops thinking of a moral principle, does it cease to exist?

Blessings,
Lee

I'm not sure what that means, I may not be presently be thinking of a moral ideals, but they still exist in my memory. If they were erased from our collective minds and memories then yes they cease to exist.

[lee_merrill]

If they were erased from our collective minds and memories then yes they cease to exist.

That seems strange to me, an unexpected consequence of your view. But you are being consistent! Would dreams also cease to exist if they were to be completely forgotten?

Blessings,
Lee

[Tassman]

Morality however often goes against our inclinations, do not steal, do not lie, etc.

As individuals yes, but as a social species we’re socialised from infancy onward by our communities to adhere to the rules of the group as a means of restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups.

Blessings,
Lee

BTW: What are "blessings" meant to convey to a stated atheist such as myself?

[seer]

That seems strange to me, an unexpected consequence of your view. But you are being consistent! Would dreams also cease to exist if they were to be completely forgotten?

Blessings,
Lee

Why does it seems strange? Moral ideals are abstracts, they have no existence of their own, they are the products of rational minds. And of course your dreams would cease to exist if they were wiped from your memory.

[seer]

BTW: What are "blessings" meant to convey to a stated atheist such as myself?

Don't be an idiot Tass, it is just a way of wishing you well...

[lee_merrill]

As individuals yes, but as a social species we’re socialised from infancy onward by our communities to adhere to the rules of the group as a means of restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups.

But you were saying evolution gives us instincts that are moral! You've shifted your view here. But if evolution gives us social mores, are you saying evolution gives us a propensity to make laws like "do not lie", "do not steal"? I don't notice baboons and birds doing that.

BTW: What are "blessings" meant to convey to a stated atheist such as myself?

Being a theist, I wish you the best, from my God.

Blessings!
Lee

[lee_merrill]

And of course your dreams would cease to exist if they were wiped from your memory.

I would disagree, I think an event such as a dream in the past has existence even if it is forgotten.

Blessings,
Lee

[seer]

But you were saying evolution gives us instincts that are moral! You've shifted your view here. But if evolution gives us social mores, are you saying evolution gives us a propensity to make laws like "do not lie", "do not steal"? I don't notice baboons and birds doing that.

No, I do believe that evolution could cause certain behaviors, but I also believe that moral principles are God given, or God infused -(the law written on our hearts). Lee, I'm trying to defend the Aseity of God here and you seem to be attacking it.

[seer]

I would disagree, I think an event such as a dream in the past has existence even if it is forgotten.

Blessings,
Lee

Where does it exist?

[Tassman]

But you were saying evolution gives us instincts that are moral! You've shifted your view here.

No I haven’t. Morality simply consists of rules of behaviour which derive from our instinctive need, as a social species, to maintain our communities.

But if evolution gives us social mores, are you saying evolution gives us a propensity to make laws like "do not lie", "do not steal"? I don't notice baboons and birds doing that.

All social species, including baboons, have the propensity to maintain their communities via instinctive rules of acceptable or unacceptable group behaviour. Whilst baboons cannot conceptualization these rules in the same way that the human animal can, they nevertheless enforce them in their own way.

Being a theist, I wish you the best, from my God.

Blessings!
Lee

Personally I regard it as sanctimonious cant.

[Tassman]

No, I do believe that evolution could cause certain behaviors, but I also believe that moral principles are God given, or God infused -(the law written on our hearts). Lee, I'm trying to defend the Aseity of God here and you seem to be attacking it.

How is "the law written on our hearts" different from morality as evolved derivatives of self-preservation and procreation consequent upon natural selection?

[seer]

How is "the law written on our hearts" different from morality as evolved derivatives of self-preservation and procreation consequent upon natural selection?

It may not be, certainly God could have used the evolutionary process (along with Revelation) to help make us aware of His moral truths. But this is the larger point; why do you think that Moral-Realism is so popular, even in atheist circles? Because man craves certainty - moral relativism can not provide that - even though that is a logical end for materialism. The Moral Realist seeks universal moral truth or facts, seeks an objective moral standard with out the baggage of a God. Of course they can't get there, but the need is evident. Which brings us to that strange phenomenon again, as I pointed out in other areas, man seems very dissatisfied with life as it is. Why isn't the atheist, or most men, accepting of moral relativism? Why the deep desire to attach ethics to something permanent, universal or objective when if atheism is true no such standard exists?

[lee_merrill]

No, I do believe that evolution could cause certain behaviors, but I also believe that moral principles are God given, or God infused -(the law written on our hearts). Lee, I'm trying to defend the Aseity of God here and you seem to be attacking it.

I agree with you, I'm not sure where the aseity of God comes into play here.

I think an event such as a dream in the past has existence even if it is forgotten.

Where does it exist?

As part of the past, as a past event. It is (my favorite word again) now self-existent.

Blessings,
Lee