Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)

[seer]

Because I've been working under the assumption you actually want to understand the worldview. But I am beginning to rethink the wisdom of continuing. That does not appear to be your objective.

I think I have been living in your head rent free! Besides you don't believe anything I didn't believe before my conversion.

At this point - this has been answered multiple times. I see nothing to gain by repeating myself yet again. And your repeated use of "invent" when I have explained why that word is not a good fit is beginning to suggest to me that I am being trolled, and falling for it.

Ok...

And, as best I can tell, your question suggests you do not use the same definition of "morality" that I do - subjective OR objective, absolute OR relative, individual OR universal. No one, as far as I know, defines the term as "the best I can do."

OK, again...

[carpedm9587]

I think I have been living in your head rent free! Besides you don't believe anything I didn't believe before my conversion.

Also true in reverse...

That being said, Seer, I do the best I can to live by the wise words of a young hippie I once saw on Candid Camera, as odd as that might be for a source of wisdom. The setting was a staged store clerk who did not give anyone their change. When asked about it, the clerk would explain it was a new store policy to not give change. People had all sorts of different reactions, from outrage to pleading. But one young man shrugged and just left the store. When interviewed after the fact, he said, "I don't rent space in my head to nobody."

I was very impressed by that attitude. I don't live it perfectly - but I try as much as I can. Yet another example (not in a moral place) of holding to an ideal I cannot be 100% consistent with - because I see the ideal as having value.

Ok...

OK, again...

Wow - are we really done?

It is interesting to me, Seer, that we both appear to have wandered a path of conversion, but mine was FROM Christianity (and a fairly conservative one at that) and yours was TO Christianity (as best i can tell, also a conservative brand).

It would be an interesting exercise to compare notes as to what transpired to trigger those changes.

[seer]

Wow - are we really done?

Maybe...

It is interesting to me, Seer, that we both appear to have wandered a path of conversion, but mine was FROM Christianity (and a fairly conservative one at that) and yours was TO Christianity (as best i can tell, also a conservative brand).

It would be an interesting exercise to compare notes as to what transpired to trigger those changes.

In my case it was an encounter with God, a number of things lead up to that of course. It was August 19th 1990.

[carpedm9587]

Maybe...

In my case it was an encounter with God, a number of things lead up to that of course. It was August 19th 1990.

You actually came face to face with god?

[seer]

You actually came face to face with god?

No, but a profound sense of His presence, so overwhelming that I could no longer stand, I thought I was going to die - I begged Him to stop - He did... It was both wonderful and terrifying...

[carpedm9587]

No, but a profound sense of His presence, so overwhelming that I could no longer stand, I thought I was going to die - I begged Him to stop - He did... It was both wonderful and terrifying...

And how do you know this wasn't simply a psychosomatic incident?

[seer]

And how do you know this wasn't simply a psychosomatic incident?

I had three such incidents that fall, and none since. This presence was more concrete and real than this room I'm sitting in, and I knew I was in contact with a Mind. Was it psychosomatic? I doubt it, there were too many coincidences leading up these experiences. I was being hedged in left and right, funneled to the God of Christendom. And though I was wrestling with this whole God thing I was not given to undue stress or conflict at the time.

[carpedm9587]

I had three such incidents that fall, and none since. This presence was more concrete and real than this room I'm sitting in, and I knew I was in contact with a Mind. Was it psychosomatic? I doubt it, there were too many coincidences leading up these experiences. I was being hedged in left and right, funneled to the God of Christendom. And though I was wrestling with this whole God thing I was not given to undue stress or conflict at the time.

So can you identify what is was about the experience that convinced you that you were encountering the Christian god?

[Tassman]

I had three such incidents that fall, and none since. This presence was more concrete and real than this room I'm sitting in, and I knew I was in contact with a Mind. Was it psychosomatic? I doubt it, there were too many coincidences leading up these experiences. I was being hedged in left and right, funneled to the God of Christendom. And though I was wrestling with this whole God thing I was not given to undue stress or conflict at the time.

And if you were raised Muslim and lived with your Muslim community in the back-blocks of say, Bangladesh and had such an experience would you "know" that you were in the presence of the God of Christendom? Or would you assume you were in the presence of Allah?

[Starlight]

And how do you know this wasn't simply a psychosomatic incident?

I had three of those, over a period of a few months, a decade ago. When I was part way between waking and dreaming I hallucinated seeing things in my bedroom. Twice it was quite scary - once it was giant spiders attacking, and once The Mummy out of the movie.

Never had anything like it before or since. Pity I didn't have religion on my mind at the time, otherwise I could have gotten some nice angels or the presence of God like Seer did instead of The Mummy coming at me.

[carpedm9587]

I had three of those, over a period of a few months, a decade ago. When I was part way between waking and dreaming I hallucinated seeing things in my bedroom. Twice it was quite scary - once it was giant spiders attacking, and once The Mummy out of the movie.

Never had anything like it before or since. Pity I didn't have religion on my mind at the time, otherwise I could have gotten some nice angels or the presence of God like Seer did instead of The Mummy coming at me.

Star - there is something of a mocking tone to this post. I have a favor to ask. I am sincerely interested in what Seer has to share. It mirrors some of my own experiences, both in my journey towards AND my journey away from Christianity. I'm not looking to mock him.

I have no problem with others participating in the discussion, but can we possibly keep it serious and not resort to making fun or mocking?

[seer]

So can you identify what is was about the experience that convinced you that you were encountering the Christian god?

There were a series I incidents leading up to this point. I kept running into Christians, many of whom I was quite hostile towards. Putting this book or that tract in my hand, and I started working with a fundy (sweet guys though) who was always quoting scripture. In the summer of 90 there was a flurry of these encounters that I never experienced before. And after the three experiences I knew, as well as I know my own name, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. There was a certainty. That "leap" I could never explain in words, it has to be personally known...Never mind the fact that even as an agnostic I was always uncomfortable with the idea of moral relativism or that consciousness and rationality sprung from the non-rational and non-conscious forces of nature.

[seer]

And if you were raised Muslim and lived with your Muslim community in the back-blocks of say, Bangladesh and had such an experience would you "know" that you were in the presence of the God of Christendom? Or would you assume you were in the presence of Allah?

I have no idea if their experiences were anything like mine.

[seer]

I had three of those, over a period of a few months, a decade ago. When I was part way between waking and dreaming I hallucinated seeing things in my bedroom. Twice it was quite scary - once it was giant spiders attacking, and once The Mummy out of the movie.

Never had anything like it before or since. Pity I didn't have religion on my mind at the time, otherwise I could have gotten some nice angels or the presence of God like Seer did instead of The Mummy coming at me.

Nonsense, Star. I was fully awake, not in a dream world. With the first one I was hiking. I have had the experiences you speak of, this was nothing like that - on any level. And nothing like I ever experienced before or after.

[carpedm9587]

There were a series I incidents leading up to this point. I kept running into Christians, many of whom I was quite hostile towards. Putting this book or that tract in my hand, and I started working with a fundy (sweet guys though) who was always quoting scripture. In the summer of 90 there was a flurry of these encounters that I never experienced before. And after the three experiences I knew, as well as I know my own name, that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. There was a certainty. That "leap" I could never explain in words, it has to be personally known...Never mind the fact that even as an agnostic I was always uncomfortable with the idea of moral relativism or that consciousness and rationality sprung from the non-rational and non-conscious forces of nature.

Out of curiosity, were you raised in a Christian household and/or had significant exposure to Christian concepts/ideas (e.g., Sunday school, church, family traditions, community, etc.)? Or was some/most/all of this fairly new to you? And the Christians you kept running into - were these unusual situations for you - things outside the norm in your experience?