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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    No Lee, there are dreams that are completely forgotten and have no further effect.
    But some dreams affect behavior, and thus the effects would persist after the dream is forgotten.

    Why - since there is an external standard that He didn't create and has to up too.
    But God doesn't have to live up to a standard, he embodies that standard. And there being a self-existent standard I think doesn't bother the Lord.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      Originally posted by lee_merrill
      But denying myself goes against my impulses, it doesn't seem like evolution is just programming my impulses.
      As a member of a social species you benefit from being a part of a community. This requires the restraint of individual selfishness. It’s clearly evolved behaviour and we see the precursors of such behaviour among the other primates.
      Well, we've stated our cases, now I guess it's time to agree to disagree. I do have a question, though, since this thread is about objective morality. Are such morals objective?

      Best wishes,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        Well, we've stated our cases, now I guess it's time to agree to disagree. I do have a question, though, since this thread is about objective morality. Are such morals objective?

        Best wishes,
        Lee
        Morals themselves are not objective, they aren't things that have existence somewhere out there in space, they are not arbitrary, but they are not objective, but the effects of our behaviors are objective in that they effect our lives as a social species. They serve a purpose, the best interests of human life in general, and human society in particular. There is no reason to assume morals to be objective realities in and of themselves since the only purpose of human morals is that they are relative to the interests of humanity.
        Last edited by JimL; 09-20-2017, 07:03 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          Well, we've stated our cases, now I guess it's time to agree to disagree. I do have a question, though, since this thread is about objective morality. Are such morals objective?
          No. Morals are purely functional; they arose via natural selection to regulate behaviour in order to facilitate the process of survival via selection and gene propagation. There is no reason to suppose that they exist eternally...floating around in some sort mystical heaven of Platonic Forms.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            But its effects persist, thus the dream is part of reality.
            Lee, that does not make sense. Say I dream that I left the stove on, I get up to check, and sure enough, it was on. I turn it off. Nothing persists at that point on, it is in the past. Again Lee, you have to demonstrate how ethics can exist independently apart from a mind or minds.

            But God doesn't have to live up to a standard, he embodies that standard. And there being a self-existent standard I think doesn't bother the Lord.
            Why would you even need to argue for an independent standard when God already embodies goodness? To what end?
            Last edited by seer; 09-21-2017, 06:40 AM.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
              There is no reason to assume morals to be objective realities in and of themselves since the only purpose of human morals is that they are relative to the interests of humanity.
              Originally posted by Tassman
              No. Morals are purely functional; they arose via natural selection to regulate behaviour in order to facilitate the process of survival via selection and gene propagation. There is no reason to suppose that they exist eternally...floating around in some sort mystical heaven of Platonic Forms.
              Then why should I obey them? I see no special reason to follow morals if they are mere artifacts of evolution.

              Best wishes,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Lee, that does not make sense. Say I dream that I left the stove on, I get up to check, and sure enough, it was on. I turn it off. Nothing persists at that point on, it is in the past.
                Yet the world is different now that I turned the stove off at that time, there are lasting effects.

                Again Lee, you have to demonstrate how ethics can exist independently apart from a mind or minds.
                Like one planet forming plus another planet forming equals two planets, apart from anyone noticing this.

                Why would you even need to argue for an independent standard when God already embodies goodness? To what end?
                Because I believe that goodness is not arbitrary, that it could not possibly have been good to steal or commit adultery.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  Then why should I obey them? I see no special reason to follow morals if they are mere artifacts of evolution.

                  Best wishes,
                  Lee
                  And I see no special reason to follow "objective" morals - if they exist.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Yet the world is different now that I turned the stove off at that time, there are lasting effects.
                    Until I turn the stove on again, but the forgotten dream itself is still gone.


                    Like one planet forming plus another planet forming equals two planets, apart from anyone noticing this.
                    Right, but that is a physical act not an abstract principle that only exist in rational minds - as far as I know.

                    Because I believe that goodness is not arbitrary, that it could not possibly have been good to steal or commit adultery.
                    But it would not be arbitrary if it was grounded in God's immutable moral character alone. So to what end are you arguing for this?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      Then why should I obey them? I see no special reason to follow morals if they are mere artifacts of evolution.

                      Best wishes,
                      Lee
                      Like I said, the reason to obey them is because ultimately, morals, and the enforcement thereof, are meant to serve the best interests of human society, therefore, ultimately, they serve your own best interests as a human individual living in society. Surely you don't obey moral laws simply because you believe them to be objective, do you?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Until I turn the stove on again, but the forgotten dream itself is still gone.
                        But its effects are still present in the world, the world would be different if I had not turned off the stove at that time.

                        Right, but that is a physical act not an abstract principle that only exist in rational minds - as far as I know.
                        But the principle is illustrated, is demonstrated by the act, the principle is real, there really are two planets as a result.

                        But it would not be arbitrary if it was grounded in God's immutable moral character alone. So to what end are you arguing for this?
                        Because I believe it's true? Have you heard of The Euthyphro dilemma?

                        Source: "Philosophy of Religion website

                        The Euthyphro dilemma rests on a modernised version of the question asked by Socrates in the Euthyphro: “Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?”

                        © Copyright Original Source


                        I hold that morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good. Frank Turek would go farther, and say morally good acts are willed by God because he is the embodiment of goodness. I think I can subscribe to that too, I only insist that goodness is self-existent, if the world were populated by Roman gods that bicker and squabble, the standard of "love your neighbor as yourself" would still stand.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Like I said, the reason to obey them is because ultimately, morals, and the enforcement thereof, are meant to serve the best interests of human society, therefore, ultimately, they serve your own best interests as a human individual living in society.
                          My own best interests might be to avoid going to battle! Self-preservation can conflict with societal preservation. But why should society be preserved?

                          Best wishes,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            Because I believe it's true? Have you heard of The Euthyphro dilemma?

                            Source: "Philosophy of Religion website

                            The Euthyphro dilemma rests on a modernised version of the question asked by Socrates in the Euthyphro: “Are morally good acts willed by God because they are morally good, or are they morally good because they are willed by God?”

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            I hold that morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good. Frank Turek would go farther, and say morally good acts are willed by God because he is the embodiment of goodness. I think I can subscribe to that too, I only insist that goodness is self-existent, if the world were populated by Roman gods that bicker and squabble, the standard of "love your neighbor as yourself" would still stand.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            Yes, God is the embodiment of goodness so an external standard is meaningless. What God wills is good, since He is the embodiment of goodness, by nature. His acts need not be judged by or conform to an objective standard. And if God is the standard then that standard is self-existent in Him. Then you need not deal with all that nonsensical stuff about morals existing apart from minds.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              My own best interests might be to avoid going to battle! Self-preservation can conflict with societal preservation. But why should society be preserved?

                              Best wishes,
                              Lee
                              You may believe it in your own best interest to murder and rob others as well, but if ones own personal best interests were all that mattered then the same would apply to everyone which would counter your notion of what it is that you believe to be your best interests. Morals aren't all about you, you're just part of the equation.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                My own best interests might be to avoid going to battle!
                                You might, but in a primate community you would be severely punished as a freeloader.

                                Self-preservation can conflict with societal preservation.
                                It is possible, but subject to severe punishment in both primate and human societies.

                                But why should society be preserved?
                                Because the survival of society is the purpose of society, and the species, and not the survival of the individual.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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