Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - it's not. You, of course, continue to return to the need for a "objective" and "universal" true north. But the moral code for a society is the moral compass for that society. The individual moral code is the moral compass for that individual. The religious moral code is the moral compass for that religion.
I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate why a universal/absolute is necessary/possible, and that one actually exists.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat makes no sense, a real compass needs a single truth north, not a dozen true norths.
So a better analogy would be if compasses always pointed to "home." Each person has their own compass, and it takes them home. As a result, the collective community has a compass that generally takes them back to the place they live. The commonality is what drives the community, the individuality is what takes people to their own home. The analogy can be widened to nations, and even the species as a whole (though you'd have to leave earth for THAT compass to "take you home." It doesn't work so well for religiously-themed moral codes, which are not geographically-based.
Originally posted by seer View PostCarp, I could never prove or demonstrate the color red to a man born blind. Sin has twisted your reasoning powers, blinded you to God's reality and law. "The Heavens declare the Glory of God" that should be evident to you, but your cognitive abilities have been stunted:"The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight, I see no logical reason why you would hold a moral standard that you, can not or do not, often live up to? When you could just as easily adopt a lower standard that is much more consistent with your nature as you find it. Why the higher ideals that are often difficult or near impossible to live up to? Why embrace guilt, shame and a sense of failure when you don't have too? Cultural expectations?
Or a musician on fame that may remain out of their grasp...
Or the athlete on the gold medal that may forever be out of reach...
Or the overweight person on the fit physique that may forever illude him...
Or the poor person on the riches that may never materialize...
A person can only become as good as the goal(s) he or she sets for himself or herself. If you want to be the best you can be, you don't compromise your goals just because you may not attain them. Likewise, you do not compromise your moral code just because you occasionally slip up. You hold to your ideals and continually renew your commitment to achieve them.
If you do not understand that - I do not know how to explain it to you further. It is, for me, an essential part of my humanity. I would hope it would be an essential part of all our humanities. It is reasonable to do so - though it is not a life choice that can simply be explained by reason.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAgain, because you need this "absolute" and "universal" - that is what you see and what you assert. The compass, in the real world, actually doesn't point to "due north," it points to "magnetic north," which periodically needs to be adjusted to align with "true north." But that doesn't change the fact that there IS a north poll, which is why the compass analogy is limited.
So a better analogy would be if compasses always pointed to "home." Each person has their own compass, and it takes them home. As a result, the collective community has a compass that generally takes them back to the place they live. The commonality is what drives the community, the individuality is what takes people to their own home. The analogy can be widened to nations, and even the species as a whole (though you'd have to leave earth for THAT compass to "take you home." It doesn't work so well for religiously-themed moral codes, which are not geographically-based.
That's a pretty weak argument, Seer, but a convenient one. When you don't have an argument, simply claim there is no way for the other person to understand. I don't accept that level of argumentation from any of my student - or from my children - I'm certainly not going to accept it from you. But if it's the best you can do...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostA person can only become as good as the goal(s) he or she sets for himself or herself. If you want to be the best you can be, you don't compromise your goals just because you may not attain them. Likewise, you do not compromise your moral code just because you occasionally slip up. You hold to your ideals and continually renew your commitment to achieve them.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhether true north or magnetic north the point remains, there is no such objective point for our moral compass to point.
Originally posted by seer View PostThis is not how a compass works. Perhaps you shouldn't use the compass analogy.
Originally posted by seer View PostCarp, that is my worldview - that is what scripture teaches. Should I reject my worldview for yours? Should I assume that you are rational on this issue? Why? Should I assume that you are an honest broker concerning these spiritual questions when my worldview informs me that you decidedly are not?
I found I could not answer that question. Later I had a personal experience that taught me a profound lesson in self-deception, and that challenge came back to me. It started me on a road that, though it was intended to clear the deck and make me MORE open to the god I loved, ultimately led me to the beliefs I have now. Trust me - no one was more surprised than I.
I find your response dissatisfying, Seer. I know it is your belief, and it is apparently the best you can do at this point. It simply does nothing for me on any plane - intellectually, morally, or emotively.
I think it also signals the end of this particular thread. Where can one go when the only response is "you couldn't possibly understand?"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut that is the point, you could be perfectly moral by just lowering your standards - and claim victory. And it would not be a compromise if you met the lower goals that you set. After all it is you setting them. I can see the logic striving for a gold medal for the pride of winning. There is an objective goal. But morality is different, there is no objective goal.
An athlete seeking the "gold" will fail to do so if they lower their overall workout standards because sometimes they skip or eat something they probably shouldn't. Likewise, randomly deciding "lying is good" because I occasionally do it is not a rational act - it doesn't change the rationality for seeing "lying" as a moral ill. It doesn't change the impact lying has on trust - on relationships - and on the functional fabric of our community. It is these realities that make lying a "moral wrong." A moral code that is adjusted to the "best we can consistently do" is not a moral code. It is not about what we "ought" do - it is about what we "do" do.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - I would not. And if you can make that statement, then you apparently haven't understood anything I've said to this point. A subjective moral framework cannot be whimsically changed to satisfy an urge. That would render it exactly what you continually accuse it of: whimsy, invention, random, etc. A moral framework is rooted in cultural/personal/familial experiences, and (if mature) is tested by adult reason. It is not simply changed because it is "inconvenient."
An athlete seeking the "gold" will fail to do so if they lower their overall workout standards because sometimes they skip or eat something they probably shouldn't. Likewise, randomly deciding "lying is good" because I occasionally do it is not a rational act - it doesn't change the rationality for seeing "lying" as a moral ill. It doesn't change the impact lying has on trust - on relationships - and on the functional fabric of our community. It is these realities that make lying a "moral wrong." A moral code that is adjusted to the "best we can consistently do" is not a moral code. It is not about what we "ought" do - it is about what we "do" do.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAs I said - the compass analogy was flawed because it is based on a single, existent point in space. So I adjusted the "compass" to better reflect how a subjective moral compass works. If you cannot make the mental adjustment to understand what is being said, then why don't you just try substituting "GPS programmed for home" for "compass." Really, Seer, there are times I think you intentionally do everything you can to NOT understand.
No, Seer, you should hang on to your worldview. But you highlight one of the reasons I no longer have that worldview. It is too riddled with "escape clauses." I found that, too often, when I was challenged on a particular point and could not explain it, I resorted to "you cannot understand it because you are blinded by sin," or "it's in God's hands," or "who am I to judge God?" After a while, I found myself feeling disengenuous. Someone once challenged me by asking, "if you cannot adequately explain your worldview, how do you know you have the right one?"
I found I could not answer that question. Later I had a personal experience that taught me a profound lesson in self-deception, and that challenge came back to me. It started me on a road that, though it was intended to clear the deck and make me MORE open to the god I loved, ultimately led me to the beliefs I have now. Trust me - no one was more surprised than I.
I find your response dissatisfying, Seer. I know it is your belief, and it is apparently the best you can do at this point. It simply does nothing for me on any plane - intellectually, morally, or emotively.
I think it also signals the end of this particular thread. Where can one go when the only response is "you couldn't possibly understand?"Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo your analogy wasn't flawed, it was useless.
Originally posted by seer View PostYou have not asked me anything I can not explain from my worldview - yet. And you can not just dismiss my point here as an escape clause, it actually is what we believe.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd some things are in God's hands, we are not privy to everything. And no, a man with severely limited knowledge can not judge an all knowing God. On what possible basis could one do that?
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd that is the best you can do at this point Carp, and remember I was an agnostic, if not an atheist, until my later 30s.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostSo basically you are trying to live up to what the culture defines as moral.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd no, lowering your standard would not at all be random, just the opposite - it would be the most logical thing you could do - aligning your moral ideals to your nature as it is.
Originally posted by seer View PostThat is another thing, why do so many atheists find nature (even their nature) so troubling as it is?
Originally posted by seer View PostSo basically you don't lie to live up to the ideals of others and the community. Got it...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou do have a propensity for putting things in binary terms. You paint a false dichotomy, Seer. I did not question whether this was honestly your belief. I said it is an escape clause. It can be both.
When a proposition about this being defies reason. If there is a god, and this god gave me reasoning faculties, I think it is reasonable to assume I am intended to use them. When someone proposes something about this being that runs ocunter to simple reason, it is rational to say, "that does not make sense" and look for something that does. When the nonsensical is dismissed as "it's a mystery" or "God knows," that is an escape clause.
I'm not sure what "that" refers to in your first sentence. And I was Christian until my later thirties. Why is this relevant?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo. And, at this point, I have to wonder if you are intentionally misunderstanding most of what I am saying. The phenomenon is chronic in your posts. I keep coming back to, what exactly is your agenda here?
Then your definition of "morality" differs from mine. That is the only thing I can conclude.
I have no idea what you are referring to.
No.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhy do you keep answering me?
Originally posted by seer View PostI'm just trying to gleen where these high ideals of yours come from. Culture (which would include family) or do you invent them?
Originally posted by seer View PostBut I'm not the moral relativist, you are.
Originally posted by seer View PostBecause your moral ideals are in conflict with many of your natural desires, selfishness, lust, etc...
Originally posted by seer View PostOk, so it's not culture, then what is it?Last edited by carpedm9587; 12-14-2017, 07:51 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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