Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)

[Tassman]

Then why should I obey them?

I see no special reason to follow morals if they are mere artifacts of evolution.

We are all acculturated from the cradle onward, to conform to the rules of society or face the consequences.

[lee_merrill]

And if God is the standard then that standard is self-existent in Him. Then you need not deal with all that nonsensical stuff about morals existing apart from minds.

[seer]

What is sensible Lee? Of course God doesn't mind demonstrating his righteousness, for by nature He is righteous.

[lee_merrill]

You may believe it in your own best interest to murder and rob others as well, but if ones own personal best interests were all that mattered then the same would apply to everyone which would counter your notion of what it is that you believe to be your best interests.

All I'm saying is that my best interest can conflict with society's best interest. But why should society be preserved? If it comes to that, why should I be preserved?

Best wishes,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

Because the survival of society is the purpose of society, and the species, and not the survival of the individual.

But why should I honor the purpose of society?

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

What is sensible Lee? Of course God doesn't mind demonstrating his righteousness, for by nature He is righteous.

[seer]

Sheesh Lee, that does not make your case, it is God, not some external standard, that defines what is right!

Isaiah 45:19

I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

[Tassman]

But why should I honor the purpose of society?

Because we have evolved as social beings and are predisposed via natural selection to obey the rules of society;

[lee_merrill]

... it is God, not some external standard, that defines what is right!

Isaiah 45:19

I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Yes, the Lord speak righteousness, but you need the verse to say "I declare the things that are right". But the verse doesn't say that. And God is willing to have his deeds examined by an external standard, the verse I quoted shows just that.

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

But why should I honor the purpose of society?

Because we have evolved as social beings and are predisposed via natural selection to obey the rules of society;

But evolution is not forcing me to obey, so (to be clearer) I restate my question: why ought I honor the purpose of society?

Best wishes,
Lee

[JimL]

All I'm saying is that my best interest can conflict with society's best interest. But why should society be preserved? If it comes to that, why should I be preserved?

What do you mean why? See if you can answer that question for yourself, since I already have.

[Tassman]

But evolution is not forcing me to obey, so (to be clearer) I restate my question: why ought I honor the purpose of society?

Evolution is not forcing you to obey just as it's not forcing a mother to nurture her child. But most mothers do nurture their offspring because they are predisposed via natural selection to do so.

[Charles]

And I see no special reason to follow "objective" morals - if they exist.

But you see a reason to follow God's commands no matter their content. If you are told to kill, you will kill. And if your God started telling you to act like the religious extremists of ISIS there would be no boundries within your line of ethics to stop you from acting like that.

And the interesting part about objective morals is (given by definition) that whether you see a reason to follow them or not it makes no difference at all to their existence.

Anyway, if any of you have got the time there is rather interesting presentation by Sam Harris (whom I usually don't folllow much) concerning some of these issues. He makes some very good points as to why theistic moral systems are both philosophical nonsense and lead to absurd ideas about right and wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM-BC5QHexU

Enjoy.

[shunyadragon]

But evolution is not forcing me to obey, so (to be clearer) I restate my question: why ought I honor the purpose of society?

Best wishes,
Lee

Does God FORCE you to obey? If you chose not to, why should you honor the purpose of society?

The reality of human history is some obey and some do not, and some honor the purpose of society and some do not regardless of whether God exists or not.

In the natural evolution of humanity the purpose of of society is social cooperation, family and community stability, and morals and ethics that must dominate or humanity would not survive. There is no problem that some do not, but that would not dominate humanity as a whole.

[seer]

But you see a reason to follow God's commands no matter their content. If you are told to kill, you will kill. And if your God started telling you to act like the religious extremists of ISIS there would be no boundries within your line of ethics to stop you from acting like that.

But Charles, there are no boundaries with atheism either, just look at Stalinism or Maoism. But of course there would be boundaries with God since His commands would conform to His immutable moral character.

And the interesting part about objective morals is (given by definition) that whether you see a reason to follow them or not it makes no difference at all to their existence.

Well the fact that they don't exist is interesting too. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise. And the law of God would still exist whether we decided to follow them or not.

Anyway, if any of you have got the time there is rather interesting presentation by Sam Harris (whom I usually don't folllow much) concerning some of these issues. He makes some very good points as to why theistic moral systems are both philosophical nonsense and lead to absurd ideas about right and wrong:
Enjoy.

I have read Sam Harris over the years, if you want to bring up a particular point post it here.