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Thread: Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)

  1. #11
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Oh, so you mean God's law is subjective only to him? Maybe we should spend some time defining terms. But I don't understand what people mean when they say morality is grounded in God. It sounds good, but I'm not sure what they mean. We cannot be good apart from God, but I don't think that is what is meant.
    That God is the source of morality, He is the originator of ethics. He is a moral being. But can we be good without God? Didn't you quote Paul that anything not done in faith is sin?

    But here is what I'd like to emphasize, if all morality is subjective, then "love fulfils the law" (Rom. 13:8) is not an objective principle. But it's clearly stated as an objective principle, and we can see the reasonableness of this principle.
    No Lee, "love" is subjective. Again go back to my definition of objective in the OP.
    "Heaven offers nothing that the mercenary soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives. A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love of exercise less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by definition, seeks to enjoy its object. C.S. Lewis

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    I will contend here that no such thing as objective morality exists. Objective here is defined as something that exists independent of the mind or minds. If something is objective it has being apart from any personal knowledge of it. The sun, the color blue, trees, mountains etc... would all still exist even if there were no minds to grasp their reality. They have an independent existence. Morality is not in their category. Morality is interpersonal, how rational beings order their interaction with other rational beings. No rational beings, no opportunity for interaction, hence no morality. There is no independent rule "thou shalt not kill", such an ideal (which is really an abstract) does not, and I maintain, can not, exist apart from a mind or minds.

    The problem is once you bring minds into the picture you have subjectivity, that is inescapable. Some will suggest that moral ideals are akin to mathematical truths, just kind of out there for us to discover. But here again we find subjectivity. Yes there is an objective distance between the moon and the earth for instance. But what you call that distance, the tokens you use to measure it, are subjective. Is the moon 384,400 kilometers away? Or 238,900 miles? Yes distance is an objective fact, how we measure it is subjective. And when it comes to ethics there are no objective facts to link a morally subjective measurement or opinion to. They are obviously not the same.
    Morality isn't some objective thing that exists, what is objective is the results of human actions relative to human beings and human society.

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  5. #13
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That God is the source of morality, He is the originator of ethics. He is a moral being. But can we be good without God? Didn't you quote Paul that anything not done in faith is sin?
    Indeed, we need God in order to do good.

    No Lee, "love" is subjective. Again go back to my definition of objective in the OP.
    But in any case, "love fulfils the law" is an objective idea, it is independent of anyone's mind or thinking.

    Blessings,
    Lee

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post

    But in any case, "love fulfils the law" is an objective idea, it is independent of anyone's mind or thinking.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    No Lee, love fulfilling the law is not independent of anyone's mind - it comes from the mind of God...
    "Heaven offers nothing that the mercenary soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives. A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love of exercise less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by definition, seeks to enjoy its object. C.S. Lewis

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  9. #15
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No Lee, love fulfilling the law is not independent of anyone's mind - it comes from the mind of God...
    Yes, it does, but even if it didn't, it would still be true.

    Blessings,
    Lee

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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Yes, it does, but even if it didn't, it would still be true.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    How could it be true without any minds to subjectively find value in that statement?
    "Heaven offers nothing that the mercenary soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives. A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love of exercise less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by definition, seeks to enjoy its object. C.S. Lewis

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  13. #17
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    How could it be true without any minds to subjectively find value in that statement?
    If all the world went mad, would sanity still exist? Yes, it would, as an objective concept, I would say. Lack of recognition on my part, of a truth, or on everyones' part, would not make it untrue.

    Blessings,
    Lee

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    If all the world went mad, would sanity still exist? Yes, it would, as an objective concept, I would say. Lack of recognition on my part, of a truth, or on everyones' part, would not make it untrue.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    No sanity would not still exist Lee, you can not have abstract concepts without minds. Sure, the color blue would still exist even if all creatures were color blind. The color blue would not depend on our knowledge. An abstract concept like love or sanity are different - they are completely dependent on a mind.
    "Heaven offers nothing that the mercenary soul can desire. It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to. There are rewards that do not sully motives. A man's love for a woman is not mercenary because he wants to marry her, nor his love for poetry mercenary because he wants to read it, nor his love of exercise less disinterested because he wants to run and leap and walk. Love, by definition, seeks to enjoy its object. C.S. Lewis

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  17. #19
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No sanity would not still exist Lee, you can not have abstract concepts without minds. Sure, the color blue would still exist even if all creatures were color blind. The color blue would not depend on our knowledge. An abstract concept like love or sanity are different - they are completely dependent on a mind.
    But if everyone was insane, then someone could become sane, and this would not restore the concept of sanity, the concept of sanity would have been there all along. And isn't "1+1=2" an abstract concept?

    Blessings,
    Lee

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  19. #20
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    There is objective good. Objective morality would be contingent on what is objective good.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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