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Thread: Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I didn't expect agreement, Seer. I know your beliefs are different. I am speaking of my beliefs and why I have them.

    Ok Carp, I think we beat this horse enough, you my have the last word. Peace...
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

  2. #762
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Ok Carp, I think we beat this horse enough, you my have the last word. Peace...
    So exactly who won*?...

    I've enjoyed the chat. Someday, perhaps we should explore those "differing assumptions." I'm not sure we ever really established what they were.

    Wait, wait...I just saw the horse twitch...





    *that's a joke. I wasn't in it to win or lose, just to exchange/explore views. Hopefully, we've accomplished some of that.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

  3. #763
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And again what you consider evidence or what weight you put on it is as subjective or relative as anything else.
    “Evidence” is defined by the Oxford Dictionary as “that which tends to prove or disprove something; a ground for belief or proof”. The materialist has verifiable “ground for belief or proof”; the theist does not.

    You can even do that, since any "proofs" could just as easily be part of the deception. The point is we all start with unprovable assumptions. Just that some of mine are different than yours.
    Yes, “proofs could just as easily be part of the deception”, but this is unlikely given the large body of verified empirical evidence supporting the reality of the natural world as compared to the supernatural world, which has none.

    Yet you have time and time again asked me to demonstrate my beliefs starting with your worldview, accepting your assumptions to satisfy your criterion. And your belief that what goes on in your mind corresponds to reality is "blind" faith - it can not be demonstrated deductively of empirically.
    I, not Carp, am the one asking you to support your “reality” of an objective, universal ethical reality by providing examples of what some of these universal ethics are. You keep talking about them; you have never indicted what they are other than vague generalisations about loving one another.

    There you go again, scientific inquiry does not lend itself to religious questions. And perhaps these similar religious themes point to an underlying truth. The sacrificial point is interesting, why do you have ancient cultures, from the Middle East to South America to Asia, and on...(who are completely separated) coming to the conclusion that in some fashion that they need to atone for their behavior. Why do men think there is something wrong in/with them? I doubt that the Lion would come to that conclusion, if it could.
    The common aspect of virtually all religions is the need to keep the gods on side via offerings or sacrifices. It stands to reason that in the pre-scientific era human beings would attribute powerful, life-threatening natural occurrences to deities and endeavour to keep them happy. It says nothing about their reality.

    That does not say anything about their truthfulness.
    It says what is truthful according to community values based upon the fact that, as a social species, our survival depends upon living in harmony among other human beings

    Or the reverse, we are created in His image, hence we share some of His qualities or attributes. Though displayed in a very flawed way.
    The god hypothesis is a human creation; it does not have a substantive reality in and of itself.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    You know this how?
    The 'know' word again. Since I don't put knowledge in a scientistic straight-jacket, I know it. Start a thread on what knowledge is and I'll discuss it with you. But I get a feeling it'll be like talking about color to a blind guy.
    Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
    George Horne

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    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattbballman31 View Post
    The 'know' word again. Since I don't put knowledge in a scientistic straight-jacket, I know it
    You don't "know". Personal beliefs cannot be equated with factual knowledge.

    Start a thread on what knowledge is and I'll discuss it with you. But I get a feeling it'll be like talking about color to a blind guy.
    I get the feeling that it would be like talking with a guy who confuses personal belief in Jesus as his personal friend and saviour with verifiable facts.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    You don't "know". Personal beliefs cannot be equated with factual knowledge.
    Not just a personal belief. Thanks for playing though!

    I get the feeling that it would be like talking with a guy who confuses personal belief in Jesus as his personal friend and saviour with verifiable facts.
    Nope. Try again!
    Many and painful are the researches sometimes necessary to be made, for settling points of [this] kind. Pertness and ignorance may ask a question in three lines, which it will cost learning and ingenuity thirty pages to answer. When this is done, the same question shall be triumphantly asked again the next year, as if nothing had ever been written upon the subject.
    George Horne

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    You don't "know". Personal beliefs cannot be equated with factual knowledge.
    But what you just said is a personal belief!
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    You don't "know". Personal beliefs cannot be equated with factual knowledge.
    I think, perhaps, you draw too strong a line. I don't tend to think in these black/white terms. The primary definition of belief is: "an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists." The primary definition of knowledge is: "facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject."

    The words are almost identical in their meaning. If I believe that special relativity is true, it becomes part of my knowledge. When I say I know something, it is because I believe it to be true. Even the line between "fact" and "belief" is a little blurry. Most of that is because we can only take evidence and experience so far, and then we have to leap that last little boundary of uncertainty as a sheer act of faith. Sometimes we do it consciously; often we do it unconsciously.

    IMO, our knowledge lies on a continuum, and there are very few things on the 100% mark. I know I exist with 100% certainty, because there is an I thinking it. Descrates had that part right! I know gravity is a force of nature with 99.99999% certainty. My experience and science tells me it is true, but there is that niggling little part of my brain that reminds me that sometimes science shows us something we thought was so obviously true was actually not true. I know my wife loves me with 99.99% certainty. I know god does not exist with 98% certainty. I know Mr. Trump is a vile human being with 95% certainty.

    I am facetiously making up numbers, but the point is, there is still a window of possibility that I could be wrong for most things I "know." I think you are (perhaps?) trying to equate knowledge with facts, and belief with faith. I thin the reality in our lives is far more muddled - more complex.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I think, perhaps, you draw too strong a line. I don't tend to think in these black/white terms. The primary definition of belief is: "an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists." The primary definition of knowledge is: "facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject."

    The words are almost identical in their meaning. If I believe that special relativity is true, it becomes part of my knowledge. When I say I know something, it is because I believe it to be true. Even the line between "fact" and "belief" is a little blurry. Most of that is because we can only take evidence and experience so far, and then we have to leap that last little boundary of uncertainty as a sheer act of faith. Sometimes we do it consciously; often we do it unconsciously.

    IMO, our knowledge lies on a continuum, and there are very few things on the 100% mark. I know I exist with 100% certainty, because there is an I thinking it. Descrates had that part right! I know gravity is a force of nature with 99.99999% certainty. My experience and science tells me it is true, but there is that niggling little part of my brain that reminds me that sometimes science shows us something we thought was so obviously true was actually not true. I know my wife loves me with 99.99% certainty. I know god does not exist with 98% certainty. I know Mr. Trump is a vile human being with 95% certainty.

    I am facetiously making up numbers, but the point is, there is still a window of possibility that I could be wrong for most things I "know." I think you are (perhaps?) trying to equate knowledge with facts, and belief with faith. I thin the reality in our lives is far more muddled - more complex.
    I agree with all of the above. As usual you make some valuable points. But the context was mattbballman31’s unqualified assertion that “We're non-divine minds. He's the only divine mind”. In this context I do not believe that his personal belief can be equated with factual knowledge...or any form of knowledge other than purely subjective belief.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    I agree with all of the above. As usual you make some valuable points. But the context was mattbballman31’s unqualified assertion that “We're non-divine minds. He's the only divine mind”. In this context I do not believe that his personal belief can be equated with factual knowledge...or any form of knowledge other than purely subjective belief.
    We'll the first half of the assertion certainly appears to be true.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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