Page 9 of 34 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 337

Thread: Objective Morality (Once More Into The Breach)

  1. #81
    tWebber seer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    17,265
    Amen (Given)
    805
    Amen (Received)
    3515
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    That seems strange to me, an unexpected consequence of your view. But you are being consistent! Would dreams also cease to exist if they were to be completely forgotten?

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Why does it seems strange? Moral ideals are abstracts, they have no existence of their own, they are the products of rational minds. And of course your dreams would cease to exist if they were wiped from your memory.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

  2. #82
    tWebber seer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    17,265
    Amen (Given)
    805
    Amen (Received)
    3515
    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post

    BTW: What are "blessings" meant to convey to a stated atheist such as myself?
    Don't be an idiot Tass, it is just a way of wishing you well...
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

  3. #83
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    178
    Amen (Given)
    61
    Amen (Received)
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    As individuals yes, but as a social species we’re socialised from infancy onward by our communities to adhere to the rules of the group as a means of restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups.
    But you were saying evolution gives us instincts that are moral! You've shifted your view here. But if evolution gives us social mores, are you saying evolution gives us a propensity to make laws like "do not lie", "do not steal"? I don't notice baboons and birds doing that.

    BTW: What are "blessings" meant to convey to a stated atheist such as myself?
    Being a theist, I wish you the best, from my God.

    Blessings!
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  4. #84
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    178
    Amen (Given)
    61
    Amen (Received)
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And of course your dreams would cease to exist if they were wiped from your memory.
    I would disagree, I think an event such as a dream in the past has existence even if it is forgotten.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  5. #85
    tWebber seer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    17,265
    Amen (Given)
    805
    Amen (Received)
    3515
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But you were saying evolution gives us instincts that are moral! You've shifted your view here. But if evolution gives us social mores, are you saying evolution gives us a propensity to make laws like "do not lie", "do not steal"? I don't notice baboons and birds doing that.
    No, I do believe that evolution could cause certain behaviors, but I also believe that moral principles are God given, or God infused -(the law written on our hearts). Lee, I'm trying to defend the Aseity of God here and you seem to be attacking it.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

  6. #86
    tWebber seer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    17,265
    Amen (Given)
    805
    Amen (Received)
    3515
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    I would disagree, I think an event such as a dream in the past has existence even if it is forgotten.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Where does it exist?
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

  7. #87
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney/Phuket
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,856
    Amen (Given)
    1799
    Amen (Received)
    1200
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But you were saying evolution gives us instincts that are moral! You've shifted your view here.
    No I haven’t. Morality simply consists of rules of behaviour which derive from our instinctive need, as a social species, to maintain our communities.

    But if evolution gives us social mores, are you saying evolution gives us a propensity to make laws like "do not lie", "do not steal"? I don't notice baboons and birds doing that.
    All social species, including baboons, have the propensity to maintain their communities via instinctive rules of acceptable or unacceptable group behaviour. Whilst baboons cannot conceptualization these rules in the same way that the human animal can, they nevertheless enforce them in their own way.

    Being a theist, I wish you the best, from my God.

    Blessings!
    Lee
    Personally I regard it as sanctimonious cant.
    Last edited by Tassman; 09-14-2017 at 08:36 AM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  8. #88
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Sydney/Phuket
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,856
    Amen (Given)
    1799
    Amen (Received)
    1200
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No, I do believe that evolution could cause certain behaviors, but I also believe that moral principles are God given, or God infused -(the law written on our hearts). Lee, I'm trying to defend the Aseity of God here and you seem to be attacking it.
    How is "the law written on our hearts" different from morality as evolved derivatives of self-preservation and procreation consequent upon natural selection?
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  9. #89
    tWebber seer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    17,265
    Amen (Given)
    805
    Amen (Received)
    3515
    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    How is "the law written on our hearts" different from morality as evolved derivatives of self-preservation and procreation consequent upon natural selection?
    It may not be, certainly God could have used the evolutionary process (along with Revelation) to help make us aware of His moral truths. But this is the larger point; why do you think that Moral-Realism is so popular, even in atheist circles? Because man craves certainty - moral relativism can not provide that - even though that is a logical end for materialism. The Moral Realist seeks universal moral truth or facts, seeks an objective moral standard with out the baggage of a God. Of course they can't get there, but the need is evident. Which brings us to that strange phenomenon again, as I pointed out in other areas, man seems very dissatisfied with life as it is. Why isn't the atheist, or most men, accepting of moral relativism? Why the deep desire to attach ethics to something permanent, universal or objective when if atheism is true no such standard exists?
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

  10. #90
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    178
    Amen (Given)
    61
    Amen (Received)
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No, I do believe that evolution could cause certain behaviors, but I also believe that moral principles are God given, or God infused -(the law written on our hearts). Lee, I'm trying to defend the Aseity of God here and you seem to be attacking it.
    I agree with you, I'm not sure where the aseity of God comes into play here.

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill
    I think an event such as a dream in the past has existence even if it is forgotten.
    Where does it exist?
    As part of the past, as a past event. It is (my favorite word again) now self-existent.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •