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Your Views on Patriarchy

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  • #46
    This is an interesting blog post. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/com...-selective-too

    I like the point that Jesus turned hierarchies on their heads with the first will be last and the last shall be first. Meaning any complementarian women must be biding their time to be first in the kingdom by letting their silly husbands be first here. Oh, and there were several women in the Bible with leadership roles. I generally don't get dogmatic about secondary/tertiary doctrinal issues. So, I might be dogmatic about not being dogmatic?
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
      This is an interesting blog post. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/com...-selective-too

      I like the point that Jesus turned hierarchies on their heads with the first will be last and the last shall be first. Meaning any complementarian women must be biding their time to be first in the kingdom by letting their silly husbands be first here. Oh, and there were several women in the Bible with leadership roles. I generally don't get dogmatic about secondary/tertiary doctrinal issues. So, I might be dogmatic about not being dogmatic?
      Well...some Complementarians actually believe that women's subordination to men continues into eternity. Y'know, because subordination is part of their created identity.

      https://bltnotjustasandwich.com/2014...tion-of-women/
      Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

      Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

      Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Wildflower View Post
        Well...some Complementarians actually believe that women's subordination to men continues into eternity. Y'know, because subordination is part of their created identity.

        https://bltnotjustasandwich.com/2014...tion-of-women/
        Seriously? I thought patriarchy was part of the Curse. The whole "and he will master you" bit. No more death, so no more treating other groups of people like they are all incompetent compared to you.
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
          Seriously? I thought patriarchy was part of the Curse. The whole "and he will master you" bit. No more death, so no more treating other groups of people like they are all incompetent compared to you.
          Yes, that's how I read it, too But in order to hold onto the ontological inferiority of all females as evidenced in a permanent and complete inferiority of a woman's function, they have to read inferiority back into the creation accounts....its just terrible exegesis....eisegesis, actually.
          Last edited by Wildflower; 09-07-2017, 05:34 PM.
          Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

          Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

          Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

          Comment


          • #50
            God created Eve because poor Adam needed help. And you can't have one human. There have to be two due to being social creatures. And having a male and a female means babies! All a part of the plan.
            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

            Comment


            • #51
              And the word "help" is interesting. It is mostly used in reference to God's help to His people.
              Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

              Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

              Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Wildflower View Post
                And the word "help" is interesting. It is mostly used in reference to God's help to His people.
                And Jesus washed His disciples' feet. Usually that was what the lowest servant/slave did. He did that to prove a point about something. I guess that all Christians(male and female) should serve each other even if they have a higher role in society. I find it interesting that the women were often more faithful than the men were. I don't like that Mary Magdalene has been combined with the anonymous prostitute instead of being remembered as a woman deeply loyal to her Savior for healing her mental condition. I wonder what that says about those medieval guys that preferred to think she was a prostitute over a mental condition.

                Oh by the way, don't we think it's more of a matter of choice? Traditional female roles are fine if you want them. Same with traditional male roles. I just have issue with forcing people into stereotypical roles that they don't want. If a female follower type is married to a male leader type, great! They can be happy. There may be issue if a Male leader type marries a female leader type and they don't learn how to compromise. And a female follower and a male follower probably should learn some leadership/decision making skills! A female leader and male follower are likely to get a lot of grief from certain churches...
                Last edited by Christianbookworm; 09-07-2017, 06:02 PM.
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  I guess that all Christians(male and female) should serve each other even if they have a higher role in society.
                  And that's the point of the NT passages concerning the husband-wife relationships in Christ. It broke ground in the original patriarchal worldview that is the historical context in which the household codes need to be understood. Yes, its about elevating those beneath you. In that time the husband-father held ALL power over his family. What does that look like for a Christian convert in that age? It looks like masters seeing their slaves as brothers and it means husbands giving the benefits of their cultural/societal advantages to their wives by loving them as Christ loved the church. I like what you said earlier about context...it makes ALL the difference.
                  Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

                  Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

                  Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post

                    Oh by the way, don't we think it's more of a matter of choice? Traditional female roles are fine if you want them. Same with traditional male roles. I just have issue with forcing people into stereotypical roles that they don't want. If a female follower type is married to a male leader type, great! They can be happy. There may be issue if a Male leader type marries a female leader type and they don't learn how to compromise. And a female follower and a male follower probably should learn some leadership/decision making skills! A female leader and male follower are likely to get a lot of grief from certain churches...
                    Yes, one difference between patriarchy/complementarianism and equalitarianism is that patriarchy/complementarianism forces men and women into "roles" whereas equalitarianism allows both men and women to move in their gifts. So in patriarchy/complementarianism a woman must always follow a male lead, be under his "authority". Whereas in equalitarianism a woman is free to lead males if that is her gift. Like Deborah.
                    Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

                    Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

                    Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      A prayer for us...

                      "Set us free from distractions, and from those who try to limit what we can do for the body of Christ...we vow to be women...unfazed by those who prefer us quiet and small..."
                      https://www.cbeinternational.org/blo...litarian-women
                      Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

                      Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

                      Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Wildflower, I am trying to understand your point of view. I have questions for you.

                        1. Why would someone who is the follower type necessarily be "deficient"? Are they only considered to be deficient as a leader if they are forced into the role of follower?

                        2. Why would someone (male or female) be "gifted" if they choose the role of follower for themselves? Aren't they still deficient in the qualities they need to lead?

                        3. What do you think of the illustration of marriage being an analogy of Christ and his church: the husband representing Christ, and the wife representing the church?
                        Curiosity never hurt anyone. It was stupidity that killed the cat.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                          1. Why would someone who is the follower type necessarily be "deficient"? Are they only considered to be deficient as a leader if they are forced into the role of follower?
                          The complementarian view is that all women are subordinate to men. It's not limited to areas where she may lack experience or knowledge, but is comprehensive and permanent due either to her created nature or to an arbitrary creation order. She is deficient to lead herself, or to co-lead as an ontolgically equal partner with her husband or pastor or other spiritual leader. She is not suited to be responsible with leadership so must always be in subjugation to male authority (i.e. father, husband, male elder or male pastor).

                          Normal follower/leader situations in work or community do not necessitate the belief in ontological inferiority or ontological deficiency. For example, with more training, hard work, or experience a follower could become a leader in a normal situation. But the complementarians/patriarchists believe that women have either no God-created potential for leadership in traditional leadership responsibilities ("roles"), or, if they do, they are permanently forbidden from reaching their God-created potential in those leadership responsibilities ("roles").

                          Women, by their nature, are too inferior and deficient for gender mutuality. No, for a complementarian, women must always follow men, even if she is better gifted in an area where the man is not. So, in practical terms you could have a wife who is a financial advisor in her profession having to yield to her husband's financial "final decision" (even if he is a dolt) because he is the "head of the house", etc. Or, you could have a woman who holds a Ph.D in theology but who cannot serve on the church's "elder" board. Stuff like that. There can be no gender equality when the female gender is always and comprehensively subordinate to male rule in the home and the church. That's patirarchy.

                          Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                          2. Why would someone (male or female) be "gifted" if they choose the role of follower for themselves? Aren't they still deficient in the qualities they need to lead?
                          I'm sorry, I don't understand this question.

                          Originally posted by QuantaFille View Post
                          3. What do you think of the illustration of marriage being an analogy of Christ and his church: the husband representing Christ, and the wife representing the church?
                          I think its beautiful, indeed. But I think the true beauty and picture of Christ is really only revealed when it's seen from the historical socio-cultural perspective. Where now from our socio-cultural perspective we see it as restrictive to women and empowering to men, from the original perspective it has a whole different point. And it IS beautiful.
                          Last edited by Wildflower; 09-08-2017, 11:09 PM.
                          Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

                          Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

                          Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I think what is hard for many people to understand concerning this topic is that you cannot claim women are only "functionally" inferior as they are destined to always fill the subordinate "roles" in church and home when you also believe that her inferiority is an aspect of her created nature as a female. In that case it is not "functional" inferiority such as what is found in work relations but is instead ontological inferiority that necessitates her to be permanently and comprehensively under the controlling leadership of the (supposed) ontologically superior males in order for her to fulfill her role in life. IOW--she is, BY HER NATURE in permanent need of male leadership, she cannot function as God intended her to function without the guidance (spiritual and other) of males who are, BY THEIR NATURE the permanent leaders. No gifts, abilities, or even Christ-likeness is required for this special privilege. These roles between the sexes are assigned by gender, nothing else, according to complementarians/patriarchists.
                            Last edited by Wildflower; 09-09-2017, 11:35 AM.
                            Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

                            Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

                            Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              And, again, the point is...how do you as a woman deal with this belief of a sexist God and the identity He gave you as an inferior person who is ontologically deficient to make a "final decision" or who cannot ideally function as a female without male leadership in church and home? How do you deal with the inherently female need you supposedly have to need a male to be your "king and priest", your built-in spiritual guide, your authoritative "head"? How do you feel about God purposefully designing you to be deficient in these things, as if God Himself is not enough of those things for you?

                              And if you are not sure if you actually believe these things stated in this way, ask yourself this question: Do you believe marriage is supposed to have a hierarchal order with males being the "head", the spiritual and domestic authority, the one who gets the so-called "final decision"? And, do you believe women are automatically ruled out from being head pastors and/or elders in the church? If you answer "yes" then I'm asking you to tell me how you deal with this view of a God who made your whole gender ontologically deficient and how you deal believing these things about yourself.
                              Last edited by Wildflower; 09-09-2017, 12:59 PM.
                              Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

                              Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

                              Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                And, again, this is not deficiency in a "role", a function. But this deficiency extends to her whole person. She, by her nature, *cannot* (she is NOT CAPABLE) of the ability to make the most responsible home and church decisions. She cannot, by her nature, proficiently represent God (bear His image) to her church and family. She *needs* men to do this for her. This is complementarianism. And I've even heard it called, "beautiful" by its advocates.
                                Aragorn: What do you fear, my lady?

                                Eowyn: A cage. To stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or desire.

                                Aragorn: You are a daughter of kings, a shield maiden of Rohan. I do not think that will be your fate.

                                Comment

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