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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Teleology And Human Ethics...

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  • Teleology And Human Ethics...

    If the human person was created for a purpose then how a man conforms to that purpose tells us if he is good or bad. And example would be a car. If a car runs according to design we could call it a good car, if it always broke down we could call it a bad car, according to design. Moral behaviors that conform to our teleology would be called good (or moral) and those that don't would be called bad (or immoral). But if naturalism is correct there would be no objective purpose for the human person. No design to conform to, no standard to judge specific behaviors. How ever nature just happened to create us just "is."
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  • #2
    I'm holding off commenting because I think this is more pointed at the philosophical naturalists amongst us. You might get more traction in apologetics?
    "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
    Hear my cry, hear my shout,
    Save me, save me"

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by guacamole View Post
      I'm holding off commenting because I think this is more pointed at the philosophical naturalists amongst us. You might get more traction in apologetics?
      I think this is the place for it and anyone can jump in...
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #4
        The literal only solution for the non-theist is subjectivity or appeal to the natural, either of which can conceal monstrous ethical problems.
        "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
        Hear my cry, hear my shout,
        Save me, save me"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by guacamole View Post
          The literal only solution for the non-theist is subjectivity or appeal to the natural, either of which can conceal monstrous ethical problems.
          Agreed...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by guacamole View Post
            The literal only solution for the non-theist is subjectivity or appeal to the natural, either of which can conceal monstrous ethical problems.
            What monstrous ethical problems?
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              There can still be standards to judge whether or not an action is ethical. Such as whether or not an action helps or harms another.
              Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.

              "Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham

              "We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                If the human person was created for a purpose then how a man conforms to that purpose tells us if he is good or bad. And example would be a car. If a car runs according to design we could call it a good car, if it always broke down we could call it a bad car, according to design. Moral behaviors that conform to our teleology would be called good (or moral) and those that don't would be called bad (or immoral). But if naturalism is correct there would be no objective purpose for the human person. No design to conform to, no standard to judge specific behaviors. How ever nature just happened to create us just "is."

                A circular argument for the existence of God, where the assumption is the purpose and intent 'outside nature' must be for humanity to be as humanity is. It sounds a little like the moldy oldie 747 for intelligent design argument

                Science does not argue for a just "is" scenario to explain the nature of humanity. There is obviously no objective verifiable evidence for an objective purpose outside nature itself, nor is it found to be necessary that this is the case.

                Moldy oldie argument die hard, something like Zombies.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  If the human person was created for a purpose then how a man conforms to that purpose tells us if he is good or bad.
                  Thats one way to look at it.

                  And example would be a car. If a car runs according to design we could call it a good car, if it always broke down we could call it a bad car, according to design.
                  We could also call it a poorly designed car.

                  Moral behaviors that conform to our teleology would be called good (or moral) and those that don't would be called bad (or immoral).
                  What do you mean here by teleology? Moral behaviors do serve a purpose, the best interests of the species, of society, and ultimately of the individual members thereof.
                  But if naturalism is correct there would be no objective purpose for the human person. No design to conform to, no standard to judge specific behaviors. How ever nature just happened to create us just "is."
                  The objective purpose of the human person is a different question than that of the purpose of moral laws. You're starting with the apriori belief that human beings were designed for a purpose. Thats a biased perspective because you want to believe that you, above all other life forms, are special in this regard. I'm sure that if turtles had evolved brains with the ability to think like human beings, they'd think themselves special as well.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    A circular argument for the existence of God, where the assumption is the purpose and intent 'outside nature' must be for humanity to be as humanity is. It sounds a little like the moldy oldie 747 for intelligent design argument

                    Science does not argue for a just "is" scenario to explain the nature of humanity. There is obviously no objective verifiable evidence for an objective purpose outside nature itself, nor is it found to be necessary that this is the case.
                    Shuny, I don't care what science says, that is a fact. If atheism is true there is no teleology for humankind, no purpose, not even for survival. But since we are both theists we know that there is a purpose for humankind.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      What do you mean here by teleology? Moral behaviors do serve a purpose, the best interests of the species, of society, and ultimately of the individual members thereof.
                      But there is no purpose for humankind, not even for our survival. Any more than there was a purpose for extinct species.

                      The objective purpose of the human person is a different question than that of the purpose of moral laws. You're starting with the apriori belief that human beings were designed for a purpose. Thats a biased perspective because you want to believe that you, above all other life forms, are special in this regard. I'm sure that if turtles had evolved brains with the ability to think like human beings, they'd think themselves special as well.
                      Jim, what I'm saying is that if there is no purpose for humankind, then there is no correct way to live, morally, a way that would serve or line up with that purpose. Even speaking of the best interests of the species is ultimately meaningless since our survival itself is not purposeful.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        But there is no purpose for humankind, not even for our survival. Any more than there was a purpose for extinct species.

                        Jim, what I'm saying is that if there is no purpose for humankind, then there is no correct way to live, morally, a way that would serve or line up with that purpose. Even speaking of the best interests of the species is ultimately meaningless since our survival itself is not purposeful.
                        The purpose of living and extinct species remains survival. The reality is changes in the environment, competition between species naturally result in some species to evolve and some species to become extinct. The success or failure of different species is not luck, it is simply a result of natural processes as the objective verifiable evidence confirms that we can observe today. The natural course of life and evolution is not evidence for a coherent argument against natural evolution.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-04-2017, 08:13 AM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          The purpose of living and extinct species remains survival. The reality is changes in the environment, competition between species naturally result in some species to evolve and some species to become extinct. The success or failure of different species is not luck, it is simply a result of natural processes as the objective verifiable evidence confirms that we can observe today. The natural course of life and evolution is not evidence for a coherent argument against natural evolution.
                          Shuny, there is no purpose to survive. Nature did not purpose or intent our creation or our survival.

                          Webster, purpose: a :something set up as an object or end to be attained :intention

                          https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purpose

                          Oxford, purpose: The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

                          https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/purpose
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Shuny, there is no purpose to survive. Nature did not purpose or intent our creation or our survival.

                            Webster, purpose: a :something set up as an object or end to be attained :intention

                            https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purpose

                            Oxford, purpose: The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

                            https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/purpose
                            Survival of life and the species is the purpose of evolution by definition.

                            Oxford, purpose: The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.


                            Purpose for the existence and survival of life and the species does not necessarily have a purpose beyond Natural Law and natural course of the nature of our existence. Creation by an outside 'Source' as the purpose is a theological/philosophical assumption of belief.
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-04-2017, 09:45 AM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Survival of life and the species is the purpose of evolution by definition.

                              Oxford, purpose: The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
                              Nonsense Shuny, natural forces do not do anything for a reason!
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

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