Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Teleology And Human Ethics...
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThen tell me exactly what I said wrong concerning Vilenkin. As far as Krauss, given your links, I'm not sure what he position is.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut where do fields come from? And all the fields we know about live in this universe, they are part of space/time furniture. Can they exist part from space? Where exactly would that be?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostBoth Vilenkin and Krauss support a Quantum nothing world where there is no space and no time where Quantum fluctuations produce momentary virtual particles, which with the influence of Quantum gravity based on the Laws of Nature can spontaneously produce universes.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostOur space/time furniture includes the Quantum world and fields where virtual particle arise. These are observed and measured phenomenon that supports Krauss, Guth and Vilenkin hypothesis. You need to read and understand? the references by Krauss, Guth, Vilenkin and other physicists and cosmologists and understand the answers from their perspective.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostBut where do fields come from? And all the fields we know about live in this universe, they are part of space/time furniture. Can they exist part from space? Where exactly would that be?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWhere exactly would that be? My guess is that fields are everywhere, and so don't come from anywhere. As Vilinken defined it, everywhere outside the universe is a realm of unrestrained gravity, a pre-geometric state in which all of our basic notions of space, time, energy, entropy etc. lose their meaning. Fields are Locke's something rather than nothing, and in answer to his question as to why they exist would be, it's simply a brute fact.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Tass, he is saying more that that. That the ONLY necessary condition are the laws of physics:
Sheesh Tass, it is no secret that you are a fundy atheist!
And one thing that is becoming more clear (see the above link) is that there is not a path for matter and energy being eternal into the past.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes Tass, as you fight tooth and nail to defend you atheistic faith.
And while I remember Tassman giving good arguments he is not claiming certainty when it does not exist, so I don't see him fighting tooth and nail but rather sharing his qualified view. And did you loose out on the difference between science and religion?"Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.
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Tassman:You interpret this to mean within the existing universe but this is not what Vilenkin is saying, it’s what you want to THINK he’s saying for the purpose of your own theological agenda.
This is an article of faith upon which you claim “Proof” of creation ex nihilo. But you delude yourself because you misunderstand the nature of the quantum vacuum, which give particles popping out of Zero Point Energy fields randomly. This means perhaps general relativity and quantum mechanics gives parts of space-time popping universe's into existence.
The vacuum does not pre-exist the creation event, the vacuum comes from the creation event, start at about 4:50, it is perfectly clear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSES...tbChannel=null
In quantum physics, events do not necessarily have a cause, just some probability.
As such, there is some probability for the universe to pop out of “nothing.” You can find the relative probability for it to be this size or that size and have various properties, but there will not be a particular cause for any of it, just probabilities.
I say “nothing” in quotations because the nothing that we were referring to here is the absence of matter, space and time. That is as close to nothing as you can get, but what is still required here is the laws of physics. So the laws of physics should still be there, and they are definitely not nothing.
http://now.tufts.edu/articles/beginning-was-beginning
Last edited by seer; 10-17-2017, 06:51 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat are you talking about?
Nonsense Tass, that is not what Vilenkin is saying at all. The quantum vacuum only comes into existence after the creation event, they only thing necessary are the laws of physics in the "Platonic sense." There are no physical things necessary:
And it is creation from a condition of no space or time. What exists where there is no space? Where does it exist?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/21/sc...m-nothing.htmlLast edited by Tassman; 10-17-2017, 11:01 PM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post“These laws exist prior to the universe”, i.e. prior to our current universe. It’s clear what Vilenkin is saying, even with his fractured English and his difficulties in trying to explain in layman’s terms what requires advanced mathematics and knowledge of cosmology to properly understand. This becomes even more obvious given his hypotheses expounded elsewhere, such those based upon quantum nucleation et al. It is a mistake for you to base an entire argument upon the exegesis of a few seconds of a You-Tube video, as though it had the absolute unchanging authority of scripture.
That is an intuitive question belonging to the realm of classical physics; it has no meaning in the non-intuitive world of quantum mechanics where the quantum vacuum, refers to "nothing" i.e. the absence of matter, space and time as we normally understand them to be. "we now know that even empty space is filled with energy, vibrating with electromagnetic fields and so-called virtual particles dancing in and out of existence on borrowed energy courtesy of the randomness that characterizes reality on the smallest scales, according to the rules of quantum theory". And " Following a similar quantum logic, theorists have proposed that whole universes, little bubbles of space-time, could pop into existence, like bubbles in boiling water, out of this nothing".
Second is nothing, without even space and time. Following a similar quantum logic, theorists have proposed that whole universes, little bubbles of space-time, could pop into existence, like bubbles in boiling water, out of this nothing.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Absolute nothingness - has no existence. Else it would not be nothingness. And of course it never was.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by seer View PostOh stop Tass, he is clearly saying that a universe can come about from no prior physical conditions, he not only said this in the video but in the articles I have linked. The only necessary requirements are the laws of physics - in the platonic sense. Does all this shake your atheistic faith?
What is your point? Vilenkin's nothing has no prior space, Krauss doesn't commit to either model - space or no space, and I see you dishonestly misquoted the article!
You conveniently left out the "Second is nothing, without even space and time.." And on this second nothing a universe can pop into being without a pre-existing space! So what is this "stuff" that is causing this? Where does it exist if there is no pre-existing space?“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThe only “faith” in question here is your unsubstantiated belief of creatio ex nihilo and your unethical attempts to misuse Vilenkin to justify it. This is just religious apologetics by way of arguments from ignorance. This is not Vilenkin’s view and it is dishonest of you to misuse his hypotheses to claim it is.
You are too ignorant to argue with. I suggest you read ‘A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing’, subtitled “Where did the universe come from? What was there before it? What will the future bring? And finally, why is there something rather than nothing?”Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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