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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    How are thing popping into existence without a cause really any different than a miracle?
    A miracle is defined as an extraordinary event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws, whereas quantum mechanics is an extremely well tested scientific theory
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      How are thing popping into existence without a cause really any different than a miracle?
      I think you keep forgetting that particles, real or virtual, are not popping into existence, or in the case of virtual particles out of existence, from absolutely nothing, they are both ripples occuring withinin the fields that fill the quantum vacuum. There is no miracle occuring it's the fundamental nature of existence.

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      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        A miracle is defined as an extraordinary event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws, whereas quantum mechanics is an extremely well tested scientific theory
        Tass if you are talking about something happening without a cause then to me that is only semantics.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          I think you keep forgetting that particles, real or virtual particles, are not popping into existence, or in the case of virtual particles out of existence, from absolutely nothing, they are both ripples occuring withinin the fields that fill the quantum vacuum. There is no miracle occuring it's the fundamental nature of existence.
          But Tass is saying this happens without a cause, no matter where the particles come from. And how do you know Jim that all this isn't miraculous? Virtual (not real) particles popping in and out of existence with no cause? The parting of the Red Sea sounds more plausible.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Tass if you are talking about something happening without a cause then to me that is only semantics.
            Not many posts ago you asked how it would differ from a miracle. And now it is only semantics. Are your miracles only semantics then?
            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

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            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              But Tass is saying this happens without a cause, no matter where the particles come from. And how do you know Jim that all this isn't miraculous? Virtual (not real) particles popping in and out of existence with no cause? The parting of the Red Sea sounds more plausible.
              Think of the universe as one thing, think of it as you'd think of an atom, it does what it does, nothing causes it to do what it does. The quantum fields that fill all space are what you observe of as particles, they are not something separate from the fields, they are the fields, the observed particles are not some other things popping into existence, they are the vibrations taking place within those fields. So, what is the cause of the vibrating fields? Nothing, its what the universe does. Your question is like asking "what causes the universe to move the way it does," which presupposes that it has a cause. Now, I don't want to pretend expertise on the subject, but thats my laymans understanding of it.

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              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Tass if you are talking about something happening without a cause then to me that is only semantics.
                The difference is that quantum mechanics is tested and understood science whereas ‘miracles’ are violations of the laws of nature. The quantum world invalidates causal arguments as they apply to the world off classical physics.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  The difference is that quantum mechanics is tested and understood science whereas ‘miracles’ are violations of the laws of nature. The quantum world invalidates causal arguments as they apply to the world off classical physics.
                  Back to my quote from Feynman:

                  "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." Richard Feynman, The Character of Physical Law (MIT Press: Cambridge, Massachusetts)

                  But Tass how can any one understand an effect WITHOUT a cause?
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Back to my quote from Feynman:

                    "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." Richard Feynman, The Character of Physical Law (MIT Press: Cambridge, Massachusetts)

                    But Tass how can any one understand an effect WITHOUT a cause?
                    A typically misleading and dishonest seer quote from the world of science!

                    If you look at the quote in context, it is clear that what Feynman meant, namely that quantum mechanical phenomena cannot be understood using concepts or models from our ordinary experience. I.e. they cannot be understood by analogy with anything familiar such as our notions of causation in the classical sense...which is the question you're asking.

                    Quantum mechanics is in fact extremely well tested, and is a complete and tightly woven theory. Physicists such as Fenyman, understand very well its mathematical formalism and how to apply it to physical systems and make successful predictions about the results of experiments.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      A typically misleading and dishonest seer quote from the world of science!

                      If you look at the quote in context, it is clear that what Feynman meant, namely that quantum mechanical phenomena cannot be understood using concepts or models from our ordinary experience. I.e. they cannot be understood by analogy with anything familiar such as our notions of causation in the classical sense...which is the question you're asking.

                      Quantum mechanics is in fact extremely well tested, and is a complete and tightly woven theory. Physicists such as Fenyman, understand very well its mathematical formalism and how to apply it to physical systems and make successful predictions about the results of experiments.
                      Really Tass, either you believe that you can have an effect without a cause or you don't. Which is it?
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Really Tass, either you believe that you can have an effect without a cause or you don't. Which is it?
                        Because seer, cause and effect are not fundamental, they are ways of talking about the patterns that we see as the universe evolves in time. Physicists no longer think in terms of cause and effect.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Because seer, cause and effect are not fundamental, they are ways of talking about the patterns that we see as the universe evolves in time. Physicists no longer think in terms of cause and effect.
                          Seer does because he needs it to support his argument from first cause, i.e. God. In short, his religious presuppositions takes precedence over verified scientific fact.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Because seer, cause and effect are not fundamental, they are ways of talking about the patterns that we see as the universe evolves in time. Physicists no longer think in terms of cause and effect.
                            Jim, either cause and effect exists at this level or it doesn't. There is no middle ground.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              Seer does because he needs it to support his argument from first cause, i.e. God. In short, his religious presuppositions takes precedence over verified scientific fact.
                              But you have effects without a cause. Magical - like little fairies popping in and out of existence...
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Jim, either cause and effect exists at this level or it doesn't. There is no middle ground.
                                Of course, and what physics is explaining is that there is not, that cause and effect are ways of talking about the patterns that we see as the universe evolves in time.

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