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Thread: Teleology And Human Ethics...

  1. #11
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    What do you mean here by teleology? Moral behaviors do serve a purpose, the best interests of the species, of society, and ultimately of the individual members thereof.
    But there is no purpose for humankind, not even for our survival. Any more than there was a purpose for extinct species.

    The objective purpose of the human person is a different question than that of the purpose of moral laws. You're starting with the apriori belief that human beings were designed for a purpose. Thats a biased perspective because you want to believe that you, above all other life forms, are special in this regard. I'm sure that if turtles had evolved brains with the ability to think like human beings, they'd think themselves special as well.
    Jim, what I'm saying is that if there is no purpose for humankind, then there is no correct way to live, morally, a way that would serve or line up with that purpose. Even speaking of the best interests of the species is ultimately meaningless since our survival itself is not purposeful.
    “The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.” C.S. Lewis

  2. #12
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    But there is no purpose for humankind, not even for our survival. Any more than there was a purpose for extinct species.

    Jim, what I'm saying is that if there is no purpose for humankind, then there is no correct way to live, morally, a way that would serve or line up with that purpose. Even speaking of the best interests of the species is ultimately meaningless since our survival itself is not purposeful.
    The purpose of living and extinct species remains survival. The reality is changes in the environment, competition between species naturally result in some species to evolve and some species to become extinct. The success or failure of different species is not luck, it is simply a result of natural processes as the objective verifiable evidence confirms that we can observe today. The natural course of life and evolution is not evidence for a coherent argument against natural evolution.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-04-2017 at 01:13 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #13
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The purpose of living and extinct species remains survival. The reality is changes in the environment, competition between species naturally result in some species to evolve and some species to become extinct. The success or failure of different species is not luck, it is simply a result of natural processes as the objective verifiable evidence confirms that we can observe today. The natural course of life and evolution is not evidence for a coherent argument against natural evolution.
    Shuny, there is no purpose to survive. Nature did not purpose or intent our creation or our survival.

    Webster, purpose: a :something set up as an object or end to be attained :intention

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purpose

    Oxford, purpose: The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/purpose
    “The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.” C.S. Lewis

  4. #14
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Shuny, there is no purpose to survive. Nature did not purpose or intent our creation or our survival.

    Webster, purpose: a :something set up as an object or end to be attained :intention

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purpose

    Oxford, purpose: The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/purpose
    Survival of life and the species is the purpose of evolution by definition.

    Oxford, purpose: The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.


    Purpose for the existence and survival of life and the species does not necessarily have a purpose beyond Natural Law and natural course of the nature of our existence. Creation by an outside 'Source' as the purpose is a theological/philosophical assumption of belief.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-04-2017 at 02:45 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #15
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Survival of life and the species is the purpose of evolution by definition.

    Oxford, purpose: The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.
    Nonsense Shuny, natural forces do not do anything for a reason!
    “The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.” C.S. Lewis

  6. #16
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Nonsense Shuny, natural forces do not do anything for a reason!
    Nonsense seer read the definition, the reason does not necessarily have the theological purpose by definition.

    The belief in a Divine reason and purpose for you and I is a question of belief and not based on 'objective verifiable evidence. If it were a good argument based on evidence it would have merit. Nonetheless the natural explanation based on the objective verifiable evidence is more than adequate to describe the purpose and reason of natural processes behind the nature of our physical existence and evolution by definition you provided.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-04-2017 at 02:54 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #17
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Nonesense seer read the definition, the reason does not necessarily have the theological purpose by definition.
    Shuny, by definition natural forces do not have reasons or intentions or purposes. They did not have a reason for creating life, it could have been just as likely that life was not created on this planet. Remember the definition: The reason for which something is done there is no reason for why life was created!
    “The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.” C.S. Lewis

  8. #18
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Shuny, by definition natural forces do not have reasons or intentions or purposes. They did not have a reason for creating life, it could have been just as likely that life was not created on this planet. Remember the definition: The reason for which something is done there is no reason for why life was created!
    Your adding 'intention,' which goes beyond my explanation. The reason and purpose behind the natural evolution of life does not have an objectively verifiable 'anthropomorphic intention.' That is not a part of the definition of purpose you provided and I agreed to. That is a theological assumption, so is the assumption that something must be Created to have a purpose is not valid by definition.

    You are being selective as to the definition which I cited. In the definition something does not have to be created to have a purpose. Your missing the 'or' in the definition.

    Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=Reason+definition&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS740US740&oq=Reason+definition&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.10893j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


    rea·son noun 1. a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Nothing in this definition precludes that the reason for our physical existence,life and evolution cannot have very natural 'reasons' for their existence.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-04-2017 at 03:09 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. #19
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Your adding 'intention,' which goes beyond my explanation. The reason and purpose behind the natural evolution of life does not have an objectively verifiable 'anthropomorphic intention.' That is not a part of the definition of purpose you provided and I agreed to. That is a theological assumption, so is the assumption that something must be Created to have a purpose is not valid by definition.
    Shuny, "intention" was part of the Webster definition for purpose. So tell me, what was the reason why natural laws created life?
    “The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell.” C.S. Lewis

  10. #20
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Shuny, "intention" was part of the Webster definition for purpose. So tell me, what was the reason why natural laws created life?
    And what is the reason for God to create a world with so much suffering and people ultimately ending up in hell? You see? Even no reason is more satisfying than the reasons you can point to in Christianity. But of course you would rather not talk too much about that part...

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