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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Teleology And Human Ethics...

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  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Nonsense Shuny, natural forces do not do anything for a reason!
    Nonsense seer read the definition, the reason does not necessarily have the theological purpose by definition.

    The belief in a Divine reason and purpose for you and I is a question of belief and not based on 'objective verifiable evidence. If it were a good argument based on evidence it would have merit. Nonetheless the natural explanation based on the objective verifiable evidence is more than adequate to describe the purpose and reason of natural processes behind the nature of our physical existence and evolution by definition you provided.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-04-2017, 09:54 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Nonesense seer read the definition, the reason does not necessarily have the theological purpose by definition.
      Shuny, by definition natural forces do not have reasons or intentions or purposes. They did not have a reason for creating life, it could have been just as likely that life was not created on this planet. Remember the definition: The reason for which something is done there is no reason for why life was created!
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        Shuny, by definition natural forces do not have reasons or intentions or purposes. They did not have a reason for creating life, it could have been just as likely that life was not created on this planet. Remember the definition: The reason for which something is done there is no reason for why life was created!
        Your adding 'intention,' which goes beyond my explanation. The reason and purpose behind the natural evolution of life does not have an objectively verifiable 'anthropomorphic intention.' That is not a part of the definition of purpose you provided and I agreed to. That is a theological assumption, so is the assumption that something must be Created to have a purpose is not valid by definition.

        You are being selective as to the definition which I cited. In the definition something does not have to be created to have a purpose. Your missing the 'or' in the definition.

        Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=Reason+definition&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS740US740&oq=Reason+definition&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.10893j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


        rea·son noun 1. a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Nothing in this definition precludes that the reason for our physical existence,life and evolution cannot have very natural 'reasons' for their existence.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-04-2017, 10:09 AM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Your adding 'intention,' which goes beyond my explanation. The reason and purpose behind the natural evolution of life does not have an objectively verifiable 'anthropomorphic intention.' That is not a part of the definition of purpose you provided and I agreed to. That is a theological assumption, so is the assumption that something must be Created to have a purpose is not valid by definition.
          Shuny, "intention" was part of the Webster definition for purpose. So tell me, what was the reason why natural laws created life?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Shuny, "intention" was part of the Webster definition for purpose. So tell me, what was the reason why natural laws created life?
            And what is the reason for God to create a world with so much suffering and people ultimately ending up in hell? You see? Even no reason is more satisfying than the reasons you can point to in Christianity. But of course you would rather not talk too much about that part...
            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Charles View Post
              And what is the reason for God to create a world with so much suffering and people ultimately ending up in hell? You see? Even no reason is more satisfying than the reasons you can point to in Christianity. But of course you would rather not talk too much about that part...
              Charles, God created human beings to be in relationship to Him, to love Him and Him to love us and for love to have value there must be a free exchange. So we can reject our Creator, reject the moral order He calls us to follow, and that is what you end up with - moral chaos, evil. In other words, God is letting us have our way and this is what it looks like. And since God is the only source for everlasting life if you are not connected to that source you will eventually die. The Second Death.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #22
                And why does that type of love have value. A love that will cause so much suffering. We are not talking death but pain and suffering. No dogmatism can pave your way out of those rather basic questions. It seems the rather sceptical seer buys into quite a lot if it is dogma and not reason.
                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Charles View Post
                  And why does that type of love have value. A love that will cause so much suffering. We are not talking death but pain and suffering. No dogmatism can pave your way out of those rather basic questions. It seems the rather sceptical seer buys into quite a lot if it is dogma and not reason.
                  If all men followed the golden rule from the heart Charles, if they followed the law of God, what kind of world would we have? And any love of value must be freely given and received - unless you could value the love of an automaton. Second Charles, I really don't care what you think - if you are correct there is no good or evil, death, suffering are just natural conditions and as meaningless as we ultimately are.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    That is how you usually describe reality. Not me. You just use that description to justify circular claims about goodnes with no foundation.
                    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      If all men followed the golden rule from the heart Charles, if they followed the law of God, what kind of world would we have? And any love of value must be freely given and received - unless you could value the love of an automaton. Second Charles, I really don't care what you think - if you are correct there is no good or evil, death, suffering are just natural conditions and as meaningless as we ultimately are.
                      Will people escape hell if they follow the golden rule by heart. Where is the freedom in love if you face etarnal or extreme pain if you do not love? I fail to see both the freedom and the love.
                      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Charles View Post
                        Will people escape hell if they follow the golden rule by heart. Where is the freedom in love if you face etarnal or extreme pain if you do not love? I fail to see both the freedom and the love.
                        That was not the point Charles, the golden rule has to do with human interaction, loving God is how you gain everlasting life. And yes, reject God and face justice and death. There is no other source for eternal life, it doesn't exist, and if you are not connected to that source you will die.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          That was not the point Charles, the golden rule has to do with human interaction, loving God is how you gain everlasting life. And yes, reject God and face justice and death. There is no other source for eternal life, it doesn't exist, and if you are not connected to that source you will die.
                          And how is that love an expression of freedom? You either love me or suffer etarnal or extreme pain does not sound like freedom to me.
                          "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Charles View Post
                            That is how you usually describe reality. Not me. You just use that description to justify circular claims about goodnes with no foundation.
                            Where do moral questions stop Charles? Who decides?
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              And how is that love an expression of freedom? You either love me or suffer etarnal or extreme pain does not sound like freedom to me.
                              You are missing the point, you either love and are connected to the source of everlasting life or you are not. And I don't believe one suffers eternally - they are judged according to their degree of sin and face annihilation. I explained my position to you before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Shuny, there is no purpose to survive. Nature did not purpose or intent our creation or our survival.

                                Webster, purpose: a :something set up as an object or end to be attained :intention

                                https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purpose

                                Oxford, purpose: The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

                                https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/purpose
                                All true, and you don't like it. So what? Thats what I meant when I said that you begin with the presupposition that you were created and exist for a certain intended purpose. Not liking the truth, i.e. that there is no ultimate purpose for existing, doesn't make it false.
                                Last edited by JimL; 10-04-2017, 12:13 PM.

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