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Thread: Teleology And Human Ethics...

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    And what is the reason for God to create a world with so much suffering and people ultimately ending up in hell? You see? Even no reason is more satisfying than the reasons you can point to in Christianity. But of course you would rather not talk too much about that part...
    Charles, God created human beings to be in relationship to Him, to love Him and Him to love us and for love to have value there must be a free exchange. So we can reject our Creator, reject the moral order He calls us to follow, and that is what you end up with - moral chaos, evil. In other words, God is letting us have our way and this is what it looks like. And since God is the only source for everlasting life if you are not connected to that source you will eventually die. The Second Death.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever. C.S. Lewis

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    And why does that type of love have value. A love that will cause so much suffering. We are not talking death but pain and suffering. No dogmatism can pave your way out of those rather basic questions. It seems the rather sceptical seer buys into quite a lot if it is dogma and not reason.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    And why does that type of love have value. A love that will cause so much suffering. We are not talking death but pain and suffering. No dogmatism can pave your way out of those rather basic questions. It seems the rather sceptical seer buys into quite a lot if it is dogma and not reason.
    If all men followed the golden rule from the heart Charles, if they followed the law of God, what kind of world would we have? And any love of value must be freely given and received - unless you could value the love of an automaton. Second Charles, I really don't care what you think - if you are correct there is no good or evil, death, suffering are just natural conditions and as meaningless as we ultimately are.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever. C.S. Lewis

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    That is how you usually describe reality. Not me. You just use that description to justify circular claims about goodnes with no foundation.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    If all men followed the golden rule from the heart Charles, if they followed the law of God, what kind of world would we have? And any love of value must be freely given and received - unless you could value the love of an automaton. Second Charles, I really don't care what you think - if you are correct there is no good or evil, death, suffering are just natural conditions and as meaningless as we ultimately are.
    Will people escape hell if they follow the golden rule by heart. Where is the freedom in love if you face etarnal or extreme pain if you do not love? I fail to see both the freedom and the love.

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    Will people escape hell if they follow the golden rule by heart. Where is the freedom in love if you face etarnal or extreme pain if you do not love? I fail to see both the freedom and the love.
    That was not the point Charles, the golden rule has to do with human interaction, loving God is how you gain everlasting life. And yes, reject God and face justice and death. There is no other source for eternal life, it doesn't exist, and if you are not connected to that source you will die.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever. C.S. Lewis

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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That was not the point Charles, the golden rule has to do with human interaction, loving God is how you gain everlasting life. And yes, reject God and face justice and death. There is no other source for eternal life, it doesn't exist, and if you are not connected to that source you will die.
    And how is that love an expression of freedom? You either love me or suffer etarnal or extreme pain does not sound like freedom to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    That is how you usually describe reality. Not me. You just use that description to justify circular claims about goodnes with no foundation.
    Where do moral questions stop Charles? Who decides?
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever. C.S. Lewis

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    And how is that love an expression of freedom? You either love me or suffer etarnal or extreme pain does not sound like freedom to me.
    You are missing the point, you either love and are connected to the source of everlasting life or you are not. And I don't believe one suffers eternally - they are judged according to their degree of sin and face annihilation. I explained my position to you before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever. C.S. Lewis

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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Shuny, there is no purpose to survive. Nature did not purpose or intent our creation or our survival.

    Webster, purpose: a :something set up as an object or end to be attained :intention

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purpose

    Oxford, purpose: The reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists.

    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/purpose
    All true, and you don't like it. So what? Thats what I meant when I said that you begin with the presupposition that you were created and exist for a certain intended purpose. Not liking the truth, i.e. that there is no ultimate purpose for existing, doesn't make it false.
    Last edited by JimL; 10-04-2017 at 06:13 PM.

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