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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Life after the eclipse (sign of Jonah)

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  • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    @Eschaton

    It isn't true that the return of Christ is necessarily associated with the resurrection of the dead. Christ is said to return in Revelation 2-3, and again in Revelation 6 (arguably the same time). The resurrection of the dead isn't mentioned until Revelation 20 -- which even if you take the text completely literally, is at LEAST 3.5 calendar YEARS later (1003.5 if you're a postmillennialist).
    If you see Revelation as a sequential string of events, like the dispensationalists, maybe that's true. The early church taught recapitulation in Revelation. Reading it in a sequential way is more of a 19th-century idea, like dispensationalism and preterism I believe.
    The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

    Comment


    • You're talking in generalities. Of course certain things are repeated. But you don't sound real familiar with the text itself. It explicitly mentions periods of time in between certain things. For example, there are at LEAST 3.5 years between the Sixth Seal and the "First Resurrection."

      Comment


      • Originally posted by eschaton View Post
        I think the way to make the correct interpretation is to look for the teaching tradition of the apostles in the early church. That's why I gave the quote from Hippolytus. The church fathers may not be right about everything, but they are when they rely on that tradition, IMO. Hippolytus is one of the earliest to comment on Rev 12. Methodius of Olympus gives extensive commentary in "Symposium." The reason for so many opinions today is that few look to see the early interpretations.
        Yes, although Revelation is a more complex topic than most in that regard.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          You're talking in generalities. Of course certain things are repeated. But you don't sound real familiar with the text itself. It explicitly mentions periods of time in between certain things. For example, there are at LEAST 3.5 years between the Sixth Seal and the "First Resurrection."
          Here is a quote from the oldest commentary on Revelation, Victorinus.

          ...The Apocalypse here shows, therefore, that these reapers, and shepherds, and labourers, are the angels. And the trumpet is the word of power. And although the same thing recurs in the phials, still it is not said as if it occurred twice, but because what is decreed by the Lord to happen shall be once for all; for this cause it is said twice. What, therefore, He said too little in the trumpets, is here found in the phials. We must not regard the order of what is said, because frequently the Holy Spirit, when He has traversed even to the end of the last times, returns again to the same times, and fills up what He had before failed to say.... From the seventh chapter.
          Perhaps Victorinus and I aren't familiar with the text, but William Lane Craig has a Ph.D. in Philosophy from Cambridge and a Ph.D. in Theology from Heidelburg. They don't just give those away. I suggest reading some commentaries on Revelation, such as Beale, which I have, and I think you'll find that whether Revelation repeats or describes sequential events is a very modern issue. A book I like is "The Revelation of John: A Narrative Commentary by James L. Resseguie." The issue is discussed in that book. If you are looking for a case of preterism in the early church I suggest 'Revelation and the First Century: Preterist Interpretations of the Apocalypse in Early Christianity
          by Francis X. Gumerlock' which I have reviewed. BTW, I have read over 50 books on eschatology the last few years and over 100 on religion which is listed on Goodreads. I have read the OT cover to cover three times and the NT over a dozen times. I would guess I have read the Apocalypse 15-20 times. All of that is dwarfed by the time I've spent studying these things since I was a child.
          The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

          https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Eschaton
            Perhaps Victorinus and I aren't familiar with the text, but William Lane Craig has a Ph.D. in Philosophy from Cambridge and a Ph.D. in Theology from Heidelburg. They don't just give those away. I suggest reading some commentaries on Revelation
            You place too much value on the opinions of others.

            I have read the OT cover to cover three times and the NT over a dozen times.
            Then you should know that the vials don't take place until after the 3.5 years are complete (after the saints have already gained victory over the beast), whereas the trumpets encompass the full 3.5 years (when the beast is conquering the saints). They're not the same.

            Revelation 13:5-7
            And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

            Revelation 11:3
            And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. [Before the trumpets are complete]

            Revelation 15:2-6
            [Start of the Vials]
            And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast [This "victory" is described in more depth in Chapter 14], and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: and the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              You place too much value on the opinions of others.



              Then you should know that the vials don't take place until after the 3.5 years are complete (after the saints have already gained victory over the beast), whereas the trumpets encompass the full 3.5 years (when the beast is conquering the saints). They're not the same.

              Revelation 13:5-7
              And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

              Revelation 11:3
              And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. [Before the trumpets are complete]

              Revelation 15:2-6
              [Start of the Vials]
              And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast [This "victory" is described in more depth in Chapter 14], and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: and the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
              You should know that is your interpretation and not everybody agrees with it. It is that of whatever modern system you believe in.

              2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
              The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

              https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

              Comment


              • Not everyone agrees with it because most people are too busy studying commentaries and philosophizing instead of first reading what the text explicitly says. In Chapter 13, the beast has the victory over the saints for 3.5 years. In Revelation 14, the gospel is proclaimed and the earth is reaped. In Revelation 15, the saints have already achieved victory. And it is only afterward that the vials are unleashed.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  exactly, so what is the urgency? You clearly are not trying to save anyone with that attitude of dismissal and mockery, so what do you hope to accomplish by making sure everyone knows about this sign? Whether I believe this is the sign or not makes no difference. I am saved by Christ. I will be taken out in the rapture. I have no fear of what is to come. I have no need to hide in a bunker or do anything at all to prepare other than open my arms and wait for Jesus to come. I don't care about signs. Signs don't change a thing. We are always be be prepared. signs don't matter.
                  There's a lot to unpack here. The urgency is the same as the midnight cry, "Behold, the bridegroom is coming! Make yourselves ready!" I want you all to have oil for your lamps to spare. My "attitude of dismissal and mockery" is only towards lies and pride, two things which we must all rid ourselves of to embrace the truth which alone can save. No one will be taken out in the rapture until at least mid-trib. Why would the Lord bother giving us signs if they didn't matter? Don't you see how that's yet another display of self-centered arrogance on your part?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                    lies and pride, two things which we must all rid ourselves of to embrace the truth which alone can save.
                    You have a heck of a lot of self-work to do there.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                      There's a lot to unpack here. The urgency is the same as the midnight cry, "Behold, the bridegroom is coming! Make yourselves ready!" I want you all to have oil for your lamps to spare. My "attitude of dismissal and mockery" is only towards lies and pride, two things which we must all rid ourselves of to embrace the truth which alone can save. No one will be taken out in the rapture until at least mid-trib. Why would the Lord bother giving us signs if they didn't matter? Don't you see how that's yet another display of self-centered arrogance on your part?
                      I think the better option is to hold oneself as ready at all times for the bridegroom to come than wait for a sign to get ready. The disciples asked for a sign (Mat. 24 and parallels), but although Jesus warned of tribulation, he also warned of false signs, and warned that his coming would be sudden, without warning, and unmistakable. He also warned that no one would know in advance when he was coming (v. 36). It would thus appear to be the height of arrogance to predict them.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        I think the better option is to hold oneself as ready at all times for the bridegroom to come than wait for a sign to get ready. The disciples asked for a sign (Mat. 24 and parallels), but although Jesus warned of tribulation, he also warned of false signs, and warned that his coming would be sudden, without warning, and unmistakable. He also warned that no one would know in advance when he was coming (v. 36). It would thus appear to be the height of arrogance to predict them.
                        His return is preceded by "the worst times the world has ever seen" and if you hope to survive those times along with your loved ones, it's best to pay heed to His warnings--which is why they were given.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                          His return is preceded by "the worst times the world has ever seen" and if you hope to survive those times along with your loved ones, it's best to pay heed to His warnings--which is why they were given.
                          Survive or no, I will meet Him in the air. If I die before He returns, I get to go first.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            Survive or no, I will meet Him in the air. If I die before He returns, I get to go first.
                            Depends on how and why you die. If you die after accepting the mark of the beast crossing the street...not so much.

                            Comment


                            • Darfius, I am fairly certain that you are going to hell -- because, in this very thread, you have been teaching the most extreme form of salvation by works that I have ever heard.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                                Darfius, I am fairly certain that you are going to hell -- because, in this very thread, you have been teaching the most extreme form of salvation by works that I have ever heard.
                                I'm content to go where God wants me to go. Me being "certain" of anything won't affect where I end up. I just want to be able to honestly say I love the Lord by doing His will.

                                Comment

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