Life after the eclipse (sign of Jonah)

[One Bad Pig]

Depends on how and why you die. If you die after accepting the mark of the beast crossing the street...not so much.

Good thing I don't plan on accepting the mark of the beast. Being always ready for the bridegroom coming sorta implies that.

[Darfius]

Good thing I don't plan on accepting the mark of the beast. Being always ready for the bridegroom coming sorta implies that.

Rest assured I hope that's the point at which your rationalizations come to an end.

[One Bad Pig]

Rest assured I hope that's the point at which your rationalizations come to an end.

I would hope than any remaining rationalizations of mine come to an end rather sooner than that, when they are brought to my awareness.

With all due respect, prophecies of signs of the end have a 0% track record of being right. Given Jesus' rather emphatic warnings of false signs and prophets, I think I'll take the risk of simply waiting for His return and living my life according to His will regardless of what signs others think they see.

[Terraceth]

I think the way to make the correct interpretation is to look for the teaching tradition of the apostles in the early church. That's why I gave the quote from Hippolytus. The church fathers may not be right about everything, but they are when they rely on that tradition, IMO. Hippolytus is one of the earliest to comment on Rev 12. Methodius of Olympus gives extensive commentary in "Symposium." The reason for so many opinions today is that few look to see the early interpretations.

Hippolytus's eschatological interpretation involved the end of the world occurring 500 years after Jesus's birth. That clearly didn't happen, so the validity of his interpretation seems a bit dubious.

[eschaton]

Not everyone agrees with it because most people are too busy studying commentaries and philosophizing instead of first reading what the text explicitly says. In Chapter 13, the beast has the victory over the saints for 3.5 years. In Revelation 14, the gospel is proclaimed and the earth is reaped. In Revelation 15, the saints have already achieved victory. And it is only afterward that the vials are unleashed.

In the end of chapter 11 His wrath is come, the dead have been judged, the saints have been rewarded, and the earth has been destroyed (11:18). That's why the earliest interpreters felt Revelation repeats.

[eschaton]

Hippolytus's eschatological interpretation involved the end of the world occurring 500 years after Jesus's birth. That clearly didn't happen, so the validity of his interpretation seems a bit dubious.

I said that where the church fathers relied on the teaching tradition of the apostles they were correct. That's what has to be discerned. Hippolytus wasn't the only one to teach about the end times.

[seanD]

Given Jesus' rather emphatic warnings of false signs and prophets, I think I'll take the risk of simply waiting for His return and living my life according to His will regardless of what signs others think they see.

That isn't an option for a futurist as per Jesus also plainly instructing them to know the signs so we'll know when it's "even at the door" (which is presumably why he gave the signs about the parousia), which you conveniently left out.

[Jedidiah]

That isn't an option for a futurist as per Jesus also plainly instructing them to know the signs so we'll know when it's "even at the door" (which is presumably why he gave the signs about the parousia), which you conveniently left out.

Recognizing the symptoms of "at the door" is not the same as giving dates.

[seanD]

Recognizing the symptoms of "at the door" is not the same as giving dates.

Very true, but isn't what OBP said.

[One Bad Pig]

That isn't an option for a futurist

Then futurists maybe ought to re-think their position.

...as per Jesus also plainly instructing them to know the signs so we'll know when it's "even at the door" (which is presumably why he gave the signs about the parousia), which you conveniently left out.

Except he *didn't* give signs of the end. He said, "when you see these things, the time is not yet." The Christians in Jerusalem in the 60s AD saw those things, fled at an opportune time, and thus did not get caught in the siege and sack of Jerusalem.

[Darfius]

Then futurists maybe ought to re-think their position.

Except he *didn't* give signs of the end. He said, "when you see these things, the time is not yet." The Christians in Jerusalem in the 60s AD saw those things, fled at an opportune time, and thus did not get caught in the siege and sack of Jerusalem.

Scripture Verse: Luke 21

8 He replied: “Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”

© Copyright Original Source

Learn to read.

[seanD]

Then futurists maybe ought to re-think their position.

Except he *didn't* give signs of the end. He said, "when you see these things, the time is not yet." The Christians in Jerusalem in the 60s AD saw those things, fled at an opportune time, and thus did not get caught in the siege and sack of Jerusalem.

Obviously futurists believe preterism is false, so the only option is to pay heed to the signs as per Jesus' instructions.

[Faber]

Obviously futurists believe preterism is false, so the only option is to pay heed to the signs as per Jesus' instructions.

They did. They were told to flee to Pella.

[seanD]

They did. They were told to flee to Pella.

I definitely agree that the prophecies helped the Christians escape the war, hence the reason I'm open to partial/or double fulfillment of the OD. But not all of the prophecies were fulfilled. Jesus never came on the cloud at the sound of the trump (which I believe correlates with Paul's trump) to gather the elect from heaven and earth. And there's no need to argue that that was actually symbolic of Christ's revenge on Jerusalem because I think that interpretation is absurd. I also believe the OD better suits our generation, as our generation can see all the details of the events being fulfilled all over the world as per our communication technology. We know every war and rumor war, every earthquake, every famine, every pestilence, every disaster taking place all over the world usually in real time.

[Obsidian]

But not all of the prophecies were fulfilled. Jesus never came on the cloud at the sound of the trump (which I believe correlates with Paul's trump) to gather the elect from heaven and earth. And there's no need to argue that that was actually symbolic of Christ's revenge on Jerusalem because I think that interpretation is absurd.

It's definitely not the same as Paul's trump. It's the same as the seven trumpets in Revelation. (I think it's arguable that the seventh of these trumpets is the "last trump," but I doubt it, because the seventh trumpet is only blown by a regular angel, whereas the rapture occurs when Jesus himself sounds a trumpet. 1 Thessalonians 4:16.)

And you are correct that the trumpets are not about the destruction of Jerusalem. The destruction of Jerusalem occurs during the sixth or seventh seal. The trumpets occur after. That's something that even most preterists fail to grasp.

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: . . . . And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 21:24-25
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

And the purpose of the trumpets is not to punish Jerusalem -- or even necessarily to punish anyone else -- but rather, to gather the elect from the ends of the earth.