Life after the eclipse (sign of Jonah)

[Obsidian]

In the end of chapter 11 His wrath is come, the dead have been judged, the saints have been rewarded, and the earth has been destroyed (11:18). That's why the earliest interpreters felt Revelation repeats.

I never said that Revelation doesn't repeat. I said that the vials happen toward the end of the trumpets, and that they aren't the same. The earliest interpreters felt that Revelation repeats because in chapter 12, it explicitly jumps back to before the birth of Christ. Obviously things get repeated.

[eschaton]

I never said that Revelation doesn't repeat. I said that the vials happen toward the end of the trumpets, and that they aren't the same. The earliest interpreters felt that Revelation repeats because in chapter 12, it explicitly jumps back to before the birth of Christ. Obviously things get repeated.

How do you know that the vials occur at the end of the trumpets? Where does 11:18 come in?

[One Bad Pig]

Right, because God doesn't mean what He says.

Of all the books in the Bible, Revelation has by far the most symbolic language in it. It seems to me that categorically ruling out anything but a literal interpretation of anything in the book is perhaps not interacting with the text in the way it was meant to be read.

"the day of the Lord has happened, but it hasn't happened yet"...do I even need to argue here?

Orthodox preterism is quite in line with 2 Thessalonians, in that the Second Coming has not yet happened. It would help if you portrayed what I actually believe and not what you imagine I believe. I am not a Neo-Hymenaean.

[Obsidian]

How do you know that the vials occur at the end of the trumpets? Where does 11:18 come in?

Chapter 11 lists a 3.5 year period that ends prior to the Seventh Trumpet.
Chapters 13-16 list a 3.5 year period that ends prior to the First Vial.

During the 3.5 years, the beast has victory over the saints (Chapter 13).
Prior to the First Vial, the saints have already gained victory over the beast -- indicating that the 3.5 years are over. (Chapter 15).

Admittedly, it's not totally clear where the 3.5 years start during the Trumpets (i.e., whether they begin after the Sixth Trumpet, or at some earlier point). But Chapter 11 makes it sound as though the only trumpet remaining after the 3.5 years are complete is the Seventh Trumpet.

[Darfius]

Which part are you having trouble with -- eternal life, or the victorious kingdom?

I'm having trouble with the part where you say the Bible means "gaining eternal life and becoming part of the kingdom that will dominate the globe" when it speaks of overcoming. Especially in light of this:

Scripture Verse: Revelation 3

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: John 16

I have overcome the world

© Copyright Original Source

The Lord already possessed eternal life, so overcoming can't mean "to gain eternal life", at least not merely. Now that I've proven you irrevocably wrong, let's dig deeper:

Scripture Verse: John 17

3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

© Copyright Original Source

Here we see that knowing (not merely believing in) Jesus Christ is eternal life, not that it attains it. Now to someone who only desires to extend his miserable existence forever like some Muslim or Hindu, I realize this sounds like so much gibberish, but I'll go on for those to whom it may strike a chord:

Scripture Verse: John 17

4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.

© Copyright Original Source

Here the Lord says He has glorified the Father by finishing the work He was given to do.

Scripture Verse: John 17

they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.

© Copyright Original Source

Here the Lord equates obedience to His word as obedience to the Father's word and a glorification of Himself as His own obedience to the Father glorifies the Father.

Scripture Verse: John 17

22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are oneThen the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: John 14

30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: John 15

8 Thisglory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

© Copyright Original Source

Scripture Verse: John 15

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitfulapart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

© Copyright Original Source

Clearly "remaining" in the Lord is critical. This as opposed to lazily opening your mouth with a proclamation that you love Him that costs nothing and certainly doesn't involve "picking up your cross" as you were commanded by Him to do. So how do we remain in Him?

Scripture Verse: John 15

If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love

© Copyright Original Source

That sounds pretty arbitrary.

Even if you interpret Revelation 100% literally, there are at least 1003.5 years involved, which is more than a thousand.

1003.5 is nowhere near 2,000 and could still be reasonably be expressed as "a day" in Biblical parlance.

[Obsidian]

The Lord already possessed eternal life, so overcoming can't mean "to gain eternal life"

Not really. He died.

at least not merely.

Well, I didn't say "merely."

He's the one that enables our eternal life, and he is the one that enabled his kingdom's eventual conquest over the devil. He's the one that earned the victory. We have victory if we believe on him. We don't have to repeat everything that he did merely to be saved. If that were the case, what would be the point of his doing it in the first place?

Here we see that knowing (not merely believing in) Jesus Christ is eternal life, not that it attains it.

Knowing God is the purpose of the eternal life, not the definition of it. Regardless, everyone who believes on Jesus Christ will ultimately know God as you say -- whether in this life, or the next.

Clearly "remaining" in the Lord is critical.

John 15 doesn't explicitly describe hell. The language used ("burned by men") makes it sound more like defeat in this life, by God's enemies. Also, in context I think the branches probably refer to churches rather than individuals. You're using metaphorical passages to undermine salvation by grace through faith, even though there are numerous clear passages that teach salvation by faith.

[Obsidian]

To better expound on my definition of overcome, the book of Revelation offers plenty of context for what it means. It basically just means "to win." And if you join Christ's kingdom (by believing on him), you are a winner by association.

1) Victory of God's kingdom over the devil

Revelation 12:7-11
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

2) Defeat of God's earthly kingdom by the Beast

Revelation 13:5-7
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

3) Victory of God's earthly kingdom over the beast

Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

[seanD]

...so what futurists believe should be followed, despite what actually happened? You're flailing.

Mat. 24:36-44 (and parallels), Luke 12:35-40, 1 Thes. 5:1-10, etc. tell me I should act precisely as I'm doing. I don't need signs to tell me to get ready for Christ's return. Since the odds are pretty good that I will die first, and I don't know when I will die, I should try to always be ready to meet my Maker. I'm honestly not sure how you can denigrate my position and still call yourself a follower of Christ. I am quite confident that I stand on firm scriptural ground here.

And Jesus apparently disagrees with you. He gave signs for a reason, and the reason was to know when "it's even at the door." I'm not sure why Jesus and Paul bothered giving signs when they could have just taken your advice. It's as if you're telling Jesus he just shouldn't have given any signs of his coming because they "should try to always be ready to meet their Maker" instead of being concerned about signs. Nonetheless, I'll follow Jesus' advice. If you don't want to, then don't. I "denigrated" your position because I believe your position is simply wrong.

[Obsidian]

The signs were to help them identify Jesus's coming in judgment against Jerusalem. And the only clear, reliable sign that he even listed was "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies."

[seanD]

The signs were to help them identify Jesus's coming in judgment against Jerusalem. And the only clear, reliable sign that he even listed was "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies."

As Fabian pointed out, the signs were for the following questions: fall of the temple, the parousia, the end of the age. Those were the questions posed to him. "Coming on the clouds and gathering the elect" wasn't the fall of Jerusalem. If you want to believe that, have had it.

[eschaton]

Chapter 11 lists a 3.5 year period that ends prior to the Seventh Trumpet.
Chapters 13-16 list a 3.5 year period that ends prior to the First Vial.

During the 3.5 years, the beast has victory over the saints (Chapter 13).
Prior to the First Vial, the saints have already gained victory over the beast -- indicating that the 3.5 years are over. (Chapter 15).

Admittedly, it's not totally clear where the 3.5 years start during the Trumpets (i.e., whether they begin after the Sixth Trumpet, or at some earlier point). But Chapter 11 makes it sound as though the only trumpet remaining after the 3.5 years are complete is the Seventh Trumpet.

You're talking about 11:2-3, and 13:5. What about 12:6?

Rev 12:6* And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

I would say that 13:5 is tied to the chapter 12 narrative. You say that 11 is part of the trumpets and I agree. Most of the trumpets precede 11:2-3, so why wouldn't chapter 13 be related to chapter 12? You left out ch 14. Chapter 15 seems to be a throne room scene much like chapters 4 and 5 before the 7 seals.

ch 4-5 Thone room, temple
ch 6-7 Seven seals

Ch 8 begins in heavenly temple
ch 8-11 Seven trumpets

ch 12 begins in heaven
ch 12-13 persecution

Ch 14 begins with heavenly Mt. Sion and 144,000
ch 14 continues with 6 announcements

Ch 15 begins with heavenly temple
ch 16 seven vials

Looks like a pattern to me.

[Obsidian]

I would say that 13:5 is tied to the chapter 12 narrative. You say that 11 is part of the trumpets and I agree. Most of the trumpets precede 11:2-3, so why wouldn't chapter 13 be related to chapter 12?

I say that ALL references to 3.5 years in the book are referring to basically the same thing. I don't see where you disagree with me.

You left out ch 14.

What about it? Chapter 14 shows the process of achieving the "victory" over the beast that is later cited in Chapter 15. Reaping the harvest refers to winning souls (as in John 4). The angels then appear to be 'summoned,' and they use their vials to finish off the beast who has already been largely beaten.

Obviously, this interpretation is different from the people who believe that Christians will be hiding in bunkers from the Antichrist, waiting for Jesus to appear and defeat him.

[Darfius]

Not really. He died.

"He that believes in me shall never die." Clearly you don't grasp the concept. He didn't die. Not the second and only real death.

He's the one that enables our eternal life, and he is the one that enabled his kingdom's eventual conquest over the devil. He's the one that earned the victory. We have victory if we believe on him. We don't have to repeat everything that he did merely to be saved. If that were the case, what would be the point of his doing it in the first place?

We could never have learned to do it if He had not done it first. That which was made in Him was life and that life was the light of men.

Knowing God is the purpose of the eternal life, not the definition of it. Regardless, everyone who believes on Jesus Christ will ultimately know God as you say -- whether in this life, or the next.

Now you're directly contradicting Scripture, but I get called the heretic.

John 15 doesn't explicitly describe hell. The language used ("burned by men") makes it sound more like defeat in this life, by God's enemies. Also, in context I think the branches probably refer to churches rather than individuals. You're using metaphorical passages to undermine salvation by grace through faith, even though there are numerous clear passages that teach salvation by faith.

Oh boy. You're saying by "cut off", Christ meant the Father would take men out of this life...and into heaven???

[Obsidian]

As Fabian pointed out, the signs were for the following questions: fall of the temple, the parousia, the end of the age. Those were the questions posed to him. "Coming on the clouds and gathering the elect" wasn't the fall of Jerusalem. If you want to believe that, have had it.

Gathering the elect doesn't refer to the fall of Jerusalem. Gathering the elect refers to creating a new Israel after the first one is destroyed.

Isaiah 11:12-16
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations,
and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel,
and gather together the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the earth.
The envy also of Ephraim shall depart,
and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off:
Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west;
they shall spoil them of the east together:
they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab;
and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea;
and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river,
and shall smite it in the seven streams,
and make men go over dryshod.
And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people,
which shall be left, from Assyria;
like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

I take this gathering to mean a process (as the text implies), not a one-time event. That's why in Revelation it isn't described as a one-time event, either. It is described as a period of at least 3.5 years.

[Darfius]

To better expound on my definition of overcome, the book of Revelation offers plenty of context for what it means. It basically just means "to win." And if you join Christ's kingdom (by believing on him), you are a winner by association.

1) Victory of God's kingdom over the devil

Revelation 12:7-11
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

2) Defeat of God's earthly kingdom by the Beast

Revelation 13:5-7
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

3) Victory of God's earthly kingdom over the beast

Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

So your argument is #winning?

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death." That looks to me like three things them overcomers done did, but all you talk about is taking a bath in Jesus' blood while you sin to your heart's content. Nah, playa