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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

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Life after the eclipse (sign of Jonah)

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  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Fine. Let's say for the sake of argument that the stars are for signs. Why that particular alignment?
    The [virgin] woman (Virgo) is clothed with the sun (sun is in Virgo), with Jupiter (the "king" planet) in her "womb" for 9 months (the planet was in retrograde in her "womb" for 9 months) with a crown of 12 stars (constellation of Leo = 9 stars + 3 "wandering stars/planets" Venus (Morning Star = Jesus), Mars (Michael), Mercury (Gabriel)), the moon at her feet and the "dragon" (the constellation Ophiuchus = serpent bearer) at her feet. Saturn was also in Ophiuchus and Saturn worship is prominent in the occult and the planet is associated with the devil (think Roman Saturnalia).

    The birthdate of Christ in 3 BC was also mentioned and a similar alignment also occurred then, the only difference being the substitution of Jupiter for Mars amongst the "wandering stars" in the crown and a conjunction of Jupiter with the "king" star Regulus in Leo was likely the Star of Bethlehem.

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    • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
      The [virgin] woman (Virgo) is clothed with the sun (sun is in Virgo), with Jupiter (the "king" planet) in her "womb" for 9 months (the planet was in retrograde in her "womb" for 9 months) with a crown of 12 stars (constellation of Leo = 9 stars + 3 "wandering stars/planets" Venus (Morning Star = Jesus), Mars (Michael), Mercury (Gabriel)), the moon at her feet and the "dragon" (the constellation Ophiuchus = serpent bearer) at her feet. Saturn was also in Ophiuchus and Saturn worship is prominent in the occult and the planet is associated with the devil (think Roman Saturnalia).
      So, for this to work, Jesus is a planet just like the (false) god Jupiter, the angel Gabriel, and the angel Michael? That doesn't seem very Christian of you (nor does the tenditious equation of Michael to Mars or Gabriel to Mercury). That's a whole lot of pagan mixed with your Christianity, Darfius. Are you sure you want to go there?
      The birthdate of Christ in 3 BC was also mentioned and a similar alignment also occurred then, the only difference being the substitution of Jupiter for Mars amongst the "wandering stars" in the crown and a conjunction of Jupiter with the "king" star Regulus in Leo was likely the Star of Bethlehem.
      Except Jesus doesn't seem to have come back like you think, and there are a number of explanations for the star of Bethlehem. Just for kicks, since I'm feeling generous, I'll give you until February 28 (the end of the calendar year back then) to say, "my bad."

      I won't be holding my breath.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
        1 The birth of "the manchild", whomever or whatever that is. The devil attempting to kill this manchild. The church fleeing the devil's wrath.
        2 The birth pains have clearly quickened and worsened since the eclipse. Two major hurricanes, several large earthquakes, raging wildfires, the "harvest" (mockery of rapture) mass shooting and the "wars and rumors of wars" with Russia, Iran and North Korea.
        did you ever consider that Rev 12 is talking about the birth of Christ? That he is the child? and the woman is Mary, who traveled away in the desert and avoided Herod's slaughter of the babies? and Satan was trying to stop him, just like we read in the gospels? Apparently Satan is already here since he tempted Christ in the desert. So he can't be "cast down" now as you read in Rev 12. It already happened.


        Comment


        • Originally posted by Darfius
          Jesus says there will be "signs in the stars.
          The sign in the stars was the sword-shaped object which appeared in 70 A.D. It showed that there was war going on in heaven, and that the devil and his angels were about to be cast out.

          Josephus, Wars of the Jews Book 6, Chapter 5, Paragraph 3
          "Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year."

          Isaiah 34:4-5
          And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
          and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll:
          and all their host shall fall down,
          as the leaf falleth off from the vine,
          and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
          For my sword shall be bathed in heaven:
          behold, it shall come down upon Idumea,
          and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

          Ephesians 6:12
          For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

          Revelation 12:7-9
          And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

          Revelation 6:13
          [A]nd the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
            The sign in the stars was the sword-shaped object which appeared in 70 A.D. It showed that there was war going on in heaven, and that the devil and his angels were about to be cast out.

            Josephus, Wars of the Jews Book 6, Chapter 5, Paragraph 3
            "Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year."
            This star resembling a sword could very well describe Halley’s Comet’s nucleus and tail, which were visible from January 31, AD 66, until it became too close to the sun in the predawn hours around April 10. Its brightest would have been magnitude -7 [Several times brighter than Venus at its brightest, but much less than a quarter moon.] on March 20, when it was 23 million miles from the earth, and probably had an arc length of 12 degrees. Ancient Chinese observed what was probably Halley’s Comet around July-August to mid-October, AD 65, when it reached perihelion, then reappeared on January 31, AD 66. [Wen Shion Tsu, “The observations of Halley’s comet in Chinese history,” Popular Astronomy, Vol. 42 (1934), p. 191-201.] Not nearly the whole year that Josephus described, nor as spectacular as it appeared in 1910, yet clearly visible in the early morning sky only months before the beginning of the Jewish rebellion.
            When I Survey....

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            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              So, for this to work, Jesus is a planet just like the (false) god Jupiter, the angel Gabriel, and the angel Michael? That doesn't seem very Christian of you (nor does the tenditious equation of Michael to Mars or Gabriel to Mercury). That's a whole lot of pagan mixed with your Christianity, Darfius. Are you sure you want to go there?

              Except Jesus doesn't seem to have come back like you think, and there are a number of explanations for the star of Bethlehem. Just for kicks, since I'm feeling generous, I'll give you until February 28 (the end of the calendar year back then) to say, "my bad."

              I won't be holding my breath.
              Wait, you thought I was saying Jesus was a planet? Rather than that the planet symbolized Him? You're dumb.

              I didn't "think Jesus would come back." I think and thought that we are near the fulfillment of Revelation 12.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                did you ever consider that Rev 12 is talking about the birth of Christ? That he is the child? and the woman is Mary, who traveled away in the desert and avoided Herod's slaughter of the babies? and Satan was trying to stop him, just like we read in the gospels? Apparently Satan is already here since he tempted Christ in the desert. So he can't be "cast down" now as you read in Rev 12. It already happened.

                Of course I "considered it", but it would be idiotic for John to waste so much space talking about past events with no relevance even to his day, let alone amidst a book clearly meant primarily for the generation witnessing the "apocalyptic" conditions depicted therein.

                So according to you, John was going even further back in time to the beginning of time to depict Satan's fall? What a complete waste of space you think Revelation is. The "casting down" of Satan is his complete banishment from heaven where he now obtains access to "accuse our brothers day and night." At that point, there will "no longer be found a place for him." When it occurs, he will be "filled with fury", because "his time is short" before he is locked in the abyss for a thousand years. Rather than having millennia to roam freely.

                duh.gif

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                • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                  The sign in the stars was the sword-shaped object which appeared in 70 A.D. It showed that there was war going on in heaven, and that the devil and his angels were about to be cast out.
                  I'm curious how you make that leap in logic, outside of the Scripture you provided where you jump between literal and symbolic interpretations. Besides, Jesus said "signs", not sign. He also mentioned earthquakes, famines and "the seas roaring." Did the Mediterranean Sea act real cray cray, too?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Darfius
                    Besides, Jesus said "signs", not sign. He also mentioned earthquakes, famines and "the seas roaring." Did the Mediterranean Sea act real cray cray, too?
                    He said there would be signs in heaven -- in the sun, moon, and stars. You asked what was the sign in the stars. And it doesn't say anything about signs in the sea.

                    Of course I "considered it", but it would be idiotic for John to waste so much space talking about past events with no relevance even to his day, let alone amidst a book clearly meant primarily for the generation witnessing the "apocalyptic" conditions depicted therein.
                    He clearly and explicitly mentions the birth of Christ -- in the past.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                      He said there would be signs in heaven -- in the sun, moon, and stars. You asked what was the sign in the stars. And it doesn't say anything about signs in the sea.
                      Scripture Verse: Luke 21

                      25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      It's literally in the next sentence. I'm often amazed by how little you preterists know the Bible, but good heavens.

                      He clearly and explicitly mentions the birth of Christ -- in the past.
                      He clearly and explicitly alludes to the birth of Christ as symbolic of future events, perhaps the birth of the end time Elijah, one of the two witnesses, the church as a whole or all of the above.

                      Comment


                      • The next sentence isn't talking about signs. It says there are signs in heaven, and on the earth/sea there will be fear regarding things that are soon coming to earth after the heavens get shaken.

                        Luke 21:25-26
                        And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

                        Revelation 12:12
                        Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                          The next sentence isn't talking about signs. It says there are signs in heaven, and on the earth/sea there will be fear regarding things that are soon coming to earth after the heavens get shaken.

                          Luke 21:25-26
                          And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

                          Revelation 12:12
                          Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
                          The seas roaring and tossing is given as a sign of the times. What sea roared in your imaginary fulfillment?

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                          • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                            The seas roaring and tossing is given as a sign of the times. What sea roared in your imaginary fulfillment?
                            So what are you doing to be prepared? Got a bunker or something?

                            Comment


                            • What happens on earth/sea isn't a sign. What happens on earth/sea is the fulfillment of what the sign predicted. You don't seem very good at this.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                                Wait, you thought I was saying Jesus was a planet? Rather than that the planet symbolized Him?
                                No. Nice dodge.
                                I didn't "think Jesus would come back." I think and thought that we are near the fulfillment of Revelation 12.
                                Fine. You have until February 28 to see if Revelation 12 is fulfilled.
                                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                                sigpic
                                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                                Comment

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