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  • Originally posted by Darfius View Post

    Seems obvious to me that the only way to be saved from sin is to stop sinning.
    And because we still inhabit sinful flesh, the only way to stop sinning is to die.

    Physical death is an unfortunate reality at present, but Christ will deliver His faithful from that at some point. Spiritual death results from sin, so deliverance from that also requires the cessation of sin.
    Nope. It requires the covering of our sin by the blood of the sinless one. Spiritual death results from unforgiven sin.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

      And because we still inhabit sinful flesh, the only way to stop sinning is to die.
      Right, die to ourselves. There's no other possible interpretation to picking up our own crosses.

      Nope. It requires the covering of our sin by the blood of the sinless one. Spiritual death results from unforgiven sin.
      Two phrases that don't appear in the Bible. Jesus told people "go and sin no more", not "go take a bath in my blood". Also:

      Scripture Verse: James 1

      Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

      © Copyright Original Source



      Seems like you misread "unforgiven" for "full-grown".

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Darfius View Post

        Right, die to ourselves. There's no other possible interpretation to picking up our own crosses.
        False. Actual physical death is the only escape from sin.

        1 John 1
        8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

        Picking up our crosses means we are led daily to carrying our sinful burdens and overcome them by the blood of the lamb.

        Romans 7
        21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
        22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
        23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
        24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
        25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.


        Two phrases that don't appear in the Bible.
        Yeah they do.

        Jesus told people "go and sin no more", not "go take a bath in my blood".
        Revelation 7
        13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, 'Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?'
        14 I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' And he said to me, 'These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'


        Scripture Verse: James 1

        Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Seems like you misread "unforgiven" for "full-grown".
        Nope. I did not. This verse, like many in the late epistles, deals with apostasy. It lets a struggling church know the cost of remaining in long-term sin without repentance and a changed life.



        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

          False. Actual physical death is the only escape from sin.

          1 John 1
          8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.


          Romans 7

          Revelation 7
          13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, 'Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?'
          14 I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' And he said to me, 'These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'




          Nope. I did not. This verse, like many in the late epistles, deals with apostasy. It lets a struggling church know the cost of remaining in long-term sin without repentance and a changed life.


          Romans 7? There is no point in the pericope that isn't negated by Romans 6 or 8 (either or both). Romans 8:1 is essentially a heading, with the point being given exposition in Romans 8: 8-11, though the exposition really begins in verse 2. 8:2 picks up from 7:25, and in most versions of the Bible has "you" where the majority of the source texts have "me." Translators run with "you" (sgl) simply because it is the more difficult reading (which is to say, it is more obscure). Romans 8: 3-4 declares part of the reason for Christ's mission "3 ... sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and [as an offering] for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8: 8-9A "8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9A However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you" is critical to the understanding of the chapter.
          A quick synopsis
          Romans 7: "I cannot stop sinning because I am in the flesh, "I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin."
          The "I" of Romans 7 is in the flesh, but Romans 8 plainly states that "I" is not in the flesh if the Spirit of Christ is in him. Further to the point, Romans 8:13[indent]if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.[/quote]
          "You are putting to death" indicates that as long as progress is being made, all is well (perhaps).



          1John 1 is a trickier proposition, but 1John1, but basically 1: 8 "having no sin" - 9 "confessing sin" - 10 "have (never) sinned" - perfect tense, something that was done in the past but leaves a result in the present, followed by 2:1 "I am writing these things so that you may not sin." Then follows the matter of claiming to know Christ without keeping his commandments - which is declared a lie. It is again, apparently, a developmental process.


          As for dying to oneself: it is a concept that any samurai was familiar with.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

            False. Actual physical death is the only escape from sin.
            You get that idea from where? Simple logic proves it wrong. The demons sin without bodies. I hate to assume, but it seems like you're willing to do idiotic mental gymnastics to avoid accountability for your choices. Unlike a Christian.

            1 John 1
            8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
            As Paul put it, I'm not yet perfect, but that's what I strive to be, as Jesus commanded. Do you?

            Picking up our crosses means we are led daily to carrying our sinful burdens and overcome them by the blood of the lamb.
            This doesn't even make sense as a statement in English, let alone as a spiritual idea. How do you "carry" something and overcome it at the same time?

            Romans 7
            21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
            22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
            23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.
            24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?
            25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
            "Who" will rescue me. Not a "what", which is what you claim. You claim death saves or frees us from sin. I claim Jesus does by helping us to stop sinning. Who's the real Christian? Who worships death/Satan?

            Yeah they do.
            Yet you "forgot" to show me where the Bible says "spiritual death results from unforgiven sin".

            Revelation 7
            13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, 'Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?'
            14 I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' And he said to me, 'These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'
            They are washing their robes, not their bodies and/or spirits. Elsewhere the robes are called "the righteous works of the saints". Without Christ, our righteous works are elsewhere called filthy rags, because they do not lead to salvation, being devoid of the spirit and only possessing the letter of the law. This verse doesn't even hint that we're "saved from sin" while actively pursuing sin.

            Nope. I did not. This verse, like many in the late epistles, deals with apostasy. It lets a struggling church know the cost of remaining in long-term sin without repentance and a changed life.
            As usual you avoid precision. Again, I won't assume it's because you know you're lying and want to make it more difficult to be pinned down in your lie and I'll just ask you to clarify. Are you admitting that "long-term" (as opposed to short-term???) sin leads to spiritual death?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Romans 7? There is no point in the pericope that isn't negated by Romans 6 or 8 (either or both). Romans 8:1 is essentially a heading, with the point being given exposition in Romans 8: 8-11, though the exposition really begins in verse 2. 8:2 picks up from 7:25, and in most versions of the Bible has "you" where the majority of the source texts have "me." Translators run with "you" (sgl) simply because it is the more difficult reading (which is to say, it is more obscure). Romans 8: 3-4 declares part of the reason for Christ's mission "3 ... sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and [as an offering] for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8: 8-9A "8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9A However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you" is critical to the understanding of the chapter.
              A quick synopsis
              Romans 7: "I cannot stop sinning because I am in the flesh, "I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin."

              The "I" of Romans 7 is in the flesh, but Romans 8 plainly states that "I" is not in the flesh if the Spirit of Christ is in him. Further to the point, Romans 8:13[indent]if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
              "You are putting to death" indicates that as long as progress is being made, all is well (perhaps).



              1John 1 is a trickier proposition, but 1John1, but basically 1: 8 "having no sin" - 9 "confessing sin" - 10 "have (never) sinned" - perfect tense, something that was done in the past but leaves a result in the present, followed by 2:1 "I am writing these things so that you may not sin." Then follows the matter of claiming to know Christ without keeping his commandments - which is declared a lie. It is again, apparently, a developmental process.


              As for dying to oneself: it is a concept that any samurai was familiar with.
              All I was trying to say above was that we are at war with our flesh. That does not stop at our salvation. Nowhere in scripture does it say we are incapable of sin after our faith declaration, nor does it say that a single sin will cause us to lose it. That's what I take issue with in regards to Darfius' comment.
              Last edited by Bill the Cat; 04-11-2023, 09:35 AM.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                All I was trying to say above was that we are at war with our flesh. That does not stop at our salvation. Nowhere in scripture does it say we are incapable of sin after our faith declaration, nor does it say that a single sin will cause us to lose it. That's what I take issue with in regards to Darfius' comment.
                On that, agreed. The capacity to sin is not removed, and apostasy always remains possible. The capacity to not sin is, however, conferred under the aegis of the Holy Spirit. Without God's intervention, that capacity is at best severely impaired.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                  You get that idea from where? Simple logic proves it wrong. The demons sin without bodies. I hate to assume, but it seems like you're willing to do idiotic mental gymnastics to avoid accountability for your choices. Unlike a Christian.
                  Demons are incapable of being forgiven.


                  As Paul put it, I'm not yet perfect, but that's what I strive to be, as Jesus commanded. Do you?
                  Of course. But again, until we die, we are capable of sin, and we do continue to sin. That's the entire purpose of repentance.



                  This doesn't even make sense as a statement in English, let alone as a spiritual idea. How do you "carry" something and overcome it at the same time?
                  Maybe if you read it a bit slower, it'll make more sense. You can even use the dictionary to help with the big words.


                  "Who" will rescue me. Not a "what", which is what you claim. You claim death saves or frees us from sin. I claim Jesus does by helping us to stop sinning. Who's the real Christian? Who worships death/Satan?
                  You're being intentionally obtuse. No dead man can sin anymore. That's the point. While we are alive, all of us still have the capability to sin. Saved and not saved. There are no perfect people. If you think you are even close, you're worse of a narcissist than I imagined...


                  Yet you "forgot" to show me where the Bible says "spiritual death results from unforgiven sin".
                  Ok. Have it your way. Nothing causes a spirit to die. God lied. There is no hell. No lake of fire. No wages of sin. No spiritual rebirth, nothing.


                  They are washing their robes, not their bodies and/or spirits. Elsewhere the robes are called "the righteous works of the saints". Without Christ, our righteous works are elsewhere called filthy rags, because they do not lead to salvation, being devoid of the spirit and only possessing the letter of the law. This verse doesn't even hint that we're "saved from sin" while actively pursuing sin.
                  Youi are talking out of both sides of your mouth.


                  As usual you avoid precision. Again, I won't assume it's because you know you're lying and want to make it more difficult to be pinned down in your lie and I'll just ask you to clarify. Are you admitting that "long-term" (as opposed to short-term???) sin leads to spiritual death?
                  Yes. It's as clear as day exactly what I said. The fact that you can't understand a basic statement is a you problem.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                    Demons are incapable of being forgiven.
                    That gets into the statement by Origen that even Satan himself would be forgiven if he simply asked (which he later denied in a letter but still seemed to suggest that he could be saved if God destroyed his demonic nature).

                    Gregory of Nyssa was even more adamant that he could be saved declaring "the originator of evil himself will be healed."

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                      Demons are incapable of being forgiven.




                      Of course. But again, until we die, we are capable of sin, and we do continue to sin. That's the entire purpose of repentance.





                      Maybe if you read it a bit slower, it'll make more sense. You can even use the dictionary to help with the big words.




                      You're being intentionally obtuse. No dead man can sin anymore. That's the point. While we are alive, all of us still have the capability to sin. Saved and not saved. There are no perfect people. If you think you are even close, you're worse of a narcissist than I imagined...




                      Ok. Have it your way. Nothing causes a spirit to die. God lied. There is no hell. No lake of fire. No wages of sin. No spiritual rebirth, nothing.




                      Youi are talking out of both sides of your mouth.




                      Yes. It's as clear as day exactly what I said. The fact that you can't understand a basic statement is a you problem.
                      Well, we do have 1John 3:9 (and indeed, the entire chapter) to tell us there might be something wrong with the concept that a person cannot stop sinning in this lifetime. But of course, pointing to one verse opens a person to the objection that "one verse does not a doctrine make." And if the objection is countered with the whole raft of scriptures presenting the same message, the person who does it will be accused of hopping through all of the Bible and cherry picking.

                      So then. The Bible declares that a person can stop sinning in this lifetime, not without a lot of effort and not without the aegis of the Holy Spirit. 1John 3:5 ... Did Christ fail in his mission?

                      There is no Bible passage that explicitly states a person who is in the Spirit cannot stop sinning in this lifetime. There are plenty that explicitly say he can.

                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        Well, we do have 1John 3:9 (and indeed, the entire chapter) to tell us there might be something wrong with the concept that a person cannot stop sinning in this lifetime.
                        Not really. John has already declared that God’s seed remains in the believer, and this is why sin must not be one’s habitual practice. If a person sin and loses their salvation, how can it be said that God’s seed remains in that person? So, sin and God's seed both can reside in the same person. With that in mind, 1 John 3:9 does not mean that believers do not sin. It can't be used as a proof text to support that any man can achieve sinlessness. The declarations in scripture to be holy as God is holy are our targets. The commands to stop sinning are goals. If we can stop sinning, it would stand to reason that we would then become the target. But like Paul said "follow me as I follow Christ".

                        But of course, pointing to one verse opens a person to the objection that "one verse does not a doctrine make." And if the objection is countered with the whole raft of scriptures presenting the same message, the person who does it will be accused of hopping through all of the Bible and cherry picking.
                        Systematic Theology is a good approach, I think.

                        So then. The Bible declares that a person can stop sinning in this lifetime, not without a lot of effort and not without the aegis of the Holy Spirit. 1John 3:5 ... Did Christ fail in his mission?
                        No, it really doesn't. Christ's mission was to be the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Sin still exists in the world. If we read in a wooden literal fashion, we can say Christ failed. But when we realize that it is talking about deeper theological things and that Christ is the plumb line we must seek to have our sins forgiven, it makes more sense. Can we stop sinning? No. MUST we stop sinning? Yes. Will we fail? Again, yes. Grace is not an excuse to sin. It is a remedy when we sin.

                        And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
                        and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

                        There is no Bible passage that explicitly states a person who is in the Spirit cannot stop sinning in this lifetime. There are plenty that explicitly say he can.
                        None say we who are in the spirit are capable of sinless living. Scripture says we "must", and we "should", and we "are to". It never says a single person actually did.
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        - Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment

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