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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    AnswersinGenesis [ATTACH=CONFIG]24156[/ATTACH]

    Some folks will not learn.
    Although Answers In Genesis (which, whenever I see the URL for, I constantly misread it as "Answering Genesis") is a very dubious source, that doesn't mean they're inherently wrong, and they're relatively correct on this one. The big thing that got Galileo in hot water was the fact that the Pope thought Galileo was mocking him in the book (specifically, by putting some of his statements in the character who was portrayed as being in the wrong). I don't think it's known for certain whether Galileo was trying to engage in any mockery, but that's what Pope Urban thought, and guess what, mocking a guy with a lot of power can get you in trouble.
    Last edited by Terraceth; 09-22-2017, 06:47 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Gee Shunya, but that reasoning we can conclude that the current Heliocentric model is a religious view since most Christians believe in it today.
      No.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
        Although Answers In Genesis (which, whenever I see the URL for, I constantly misread it as "Answering Genesis") is a very dubious source, that doesn't mean they're inherently wrong, and they're relatively correct on this one. The big thing that got Galileo in hot water was the fact that the Pope thought Galileo was mocking him in the book (specifically, by putting some of his statements in the character who was portrayed as being in the wrong). I don't think it's known for certain whether Galileo was trying to engage in any mockery, but that's what Pope Urban thought, and guess what, mocking a guy with a lot of power can get you in trouble.
        Which is why I said in the next sentence

        While the issue is considerably more complicated than is often portrayed


        While Urban VIII disagreed with Galileo he was for the most part sympathetic up until Galileo in what can only be described as a world-class bone-headed move, seems to have gone out of his way to insult this ally. In his landmark The Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems Galileo put Urban's arguments in the mouth of Simplicio, an inept ignoramus (in Italian the name means "simpleton"). This resulted in Urban stepping aside and allowing those who wanted Galileo investigated for heresy. As one of those assigned to investigate Galileo for his trial, Jesuit Father Melchior Inchofer said:

        The opinion of the earth’s motion is of all heresies the most abominable, the most pernicious, the most scandalous; the immovability of the earth is thrice sacred; argument against the immortality of the soul, the existence of God, and the incarnation, should be tolerated sooner than an argument to prove that the earth moves.





        PS: When I mentioned early heliocentric models in a previous post I said Euclid. I meant Pythagoras.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
          Although Answers In Genesis (which, whenever I see the URL for, I constantly misread it as "Answering Genesis") is a very dubious source, that doesn't mean they're inherently wrong, and they're relatively correct on this one. The big thing that got Galileo in hot water was the fact that the Pope thought Galileo was mocking him in the book (specifically, by putting some of his statements in the character who was portrayed as being in the wrong). I don't think it's known for certain whether Galileo was trying to engage in any mockery, but that's what Pope Urban thought, and guess what, mocking a guy with a lot of power can get you in trouble.
          If you read the article, it points out that Galileo was extremely arrogant and had a well-deserved reputation for advancing his arguments through mockery and a razor-sharp wit, so Pope Urban was likely correct.

          The point is, Galileo's persecution had nothing to do with promoting heliocentrism, a hypothesis that many in the church at the time were sympathetic to but which lacked definitive proof. At one point, Galileo was cautioned to refer to it only as a hypothesis, but he doggedly insisted that it was proven, and when asked to present his proofs, he refused on the grounds that he was the only person smart enough to understand them!

          Bottom line, it wasn't the dogmatic battle between Christianity and science that some make it out to be.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            you truly are a moron, Tassman. The geocentric model was not invented by Christians. The greeks used it hundreds of years before Jesus. It was early scientists who came up with it from observations. They even calculated the orbits of the planets.
            Everybody accepted to geocentric model you fool, including the men who wrote the bible.
            Last edited by Tassman; 09-22-2017, 08:38 PM.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

              It is a profoundly instructional lesson about the hazards of trying to use the Bible as a science text book, one, that has, unfortunately, not been learned by far too many.
              Indeed it is. That's how we end up with Evangelicals who don't believe in climate change but believe in Noah’s ark.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                Everybody accepted to geocentric model you fool, including the men who wrote the bible.
                Except Lucretius.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  If you read the article, it points out that Galileo was extremely arrogant and had a well-deserved reputation for advancing his arguments through mockery and a razor-sharp wit, so Pope Urban was likely correct.

                  The point is, Galileo's persecution had nothing to do with promoting heliocentrism, a hypothesis that many in the church at the time were sympathetic to but which lacked definitive proof. At one point, Galileo was cautioned to refer to it only as a hypothesis, but he doggedly insisted that it was proven, and when asked to present his proofs, he refused on the grounds that he was the only person smart enough to understand them!

                  Bottom line, it wasn't the dogmatic battle between Christianity and science that some make it out to be.
                  Actually he did present his evidence but modern science has shown that he actually made a miscalculation.

                  There was a large, influential segment of the Catholic hierarchy who wanted Galileo investigated for promoting heresy well before he pissed off the pope. And Galileo didn't fare well with the Protestants like Philip Melanchthon and Martin Luther and to a lesser extent Calvin who could not care less that Galileo had insulted Urban who they pretty much considered was the Antichrist. In fact, some historians posit that papal denunciation of heliocentrism may have served to make it more palatable to Lutherans.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • According to the article, it was more a political manuever by Urban wanting to get revenge on Galileo than it was a firm conviction that he was heretical. Like I said, there were many in the church at the time who were sympathetic to the heliocentric hypothesis. Galileo just did a very poor job of proving it and made a lot of enemies along the way thanks to his massive ego and the viciousness with which he attacked his rivals.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      According to the article, it was more a political manuever by Urban wanting to get revenge on Galileo than it was a firm conviction that he was heretical. Like I said, there were many in the church at the time who were sympathetic to the heliocentric hypothesis. Galileo just did a very poor job of proving it and made a lot of enemies along the way thanks to his massive ego and the viciousness with which he attacked his rivals.
                      Urban's feelings, or his desire for revenge against Galileo, have nothing to do with the actual crime for which Galileo was charged.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Gee Shunya, but that reasoning we can conclude that the current Heliocentric model is a religious view since most Christians believe in it today.
                        Well, Sparko, face the challenge. Tassman pointed to the fact that Luther held his position based on his reading of the Bible. Not because most other Christians believed it. So you are failing to confront the issue. But then again, it is a rather tough issue.
                        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                          Urban's feelings, or his desire for revenge against Galileo, have nothing to do with the actual crime for which Galileo was charged.
                          You still haven't read the article, have you?

                          "...the Galileo affair was mainly an intra-Catholic and intra-ltalian problem, and not a gigantic battle between Christianity as such and science as such. The Court of Inquisition did not accuse Galileo of teaching against the Bible, but of disobeying a papal decree ... The pope initiated the trial for personal reasons, while the Inquisitors were quite lax. Some of the ten judges seem to have been mainly interested in their own forthcoming, while others applied the brakes. In the end, the final decision lacked three signatures, at least two of them out of protest. The only cardinal who zealously pushed the trial forward was the pope’s brother ... There is little doubt that the decision to instigate proceedings was Urban VIII’s, who felt that Galileo had played a confidence trick on him."
                          https://answersingenesis.org/creatio...c-hagiography/

                          As much as a simpleton like you wants to believe it, this wasn't a war of science versus religion. On the contrary, "One must not forget that the Copernican hypothesis itself was never denied by the Inquisition, but only that it was not allowed to be presented as a scientifically proven theory or as a truth," which was a perfectly sensible position to take at the time.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Charles View Post
                            Well, Sparko, face the challenge. Tassman pointed to the fact that Luther held his position based on his reading of the Bible. Not because most other Christians believed it. So you are failing to confront the issue. But then again, it is a rather tough issue.
                            Of course, Luther was railing against Copernicus, who held his position based on philosophy, not observation. It's also fair to posit that Luther held his position because that's what he was taught, and found a passage he could interpret in a way to support what he had been taught; Tassman's assertion is certainly not a fact. I would also be at least mildly surprised if Luther's citation was unique, even though it's hardly necessary to interpret the passage that way.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              You still haven't read the article, have you?

                              "...the Galileo affair was mainly an intra-Catholic and intra-ltalian problem, and not a gigantic battle between Christianity as such and science as such. The Court of Inquisition did not accuse Galileo of teaching against the Bible, but of disobeying a papal decree ... The pope initiated the trial for personal reasons, while the Inquisitors were quite lax. Some of the ten judges seem to have been mainly interested in their own forthcoming, while others applied the brakes. In the end, the final decision lacked three signatures, at least two of them out of protest. The only cardinal who zealously pushed the trial forward was the pope’s brother ... There is little doubt that the decision to instigate proceedings was Urban VIII’s, who felt that Galileo had played a confidence trick on him."
                              https://answersingenesis.org/creatio...c-hagiography/

                              As much as a simpleton like you wants to believe it, this wasn't a war of science versus religion. On the contrary, "One must not forget that the Copernican hypothesis itself was never denied by the Inquisition, but only that it was not allowed to be presented as a scientifically proven theory or as a truth," which was a perfectly sensible position to take at the time.
                              Allow me to quote some lines from the Papal Condemnation (Sentence) of Galileo:

                              We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine—which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures—that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world; and that an opinion may be held and defended as probably after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to the Holy Scripture; and that consequently you have incurred all the censures and penalties imposed and promulgated in the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against such delinquents. From which we are content that you be absolved, provided that, first, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, you abjure, curse, and detest before use the aforesaid errors and heresies and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church in the form to be prescribed by us for you.
                              Earlier on it is said in a more simple form:

                              The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture.

                              The proposition that the Earth is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith.
                              (Emphasis is mine)

                              Read the entire text: http://www.famous-trials.com/galileo...2-condemnation
                              "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                No.
                                yes. your argument was stupid.

                                Comment

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