John 20:28, My Lord and My God

[Unitarian101]

Revelation 22:12 and 22: 13 reminds us of Revelation 1:7 and 1:8 --

In Revelation 1:7 the topic of discussion is Jesus (he is coming, with the clouds etc.), and without any warning the topic switches to the Father the very next verse (saying that the Father is the Alpha and the Omega) . And the very next verse after that, starting verse 9, apostle John's testimony / monologue:

7 Behold he comes with the clouds,and and all eyes will see him, even those who pierced him, and will wail on account of him all the tribes of the earth. Yes, Amen. (Red is Jesus)

8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, the One Who is and Who was and Who is to come, the Almighty. (Yellow is the Father)

9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus..... (Green is apostle John's monologue)

Same format at Revelation 22:12 and 13. So I divide the verses in the same way here also:

12 "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. (Red is Jesus)

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (Yellow is the Father)

14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city..... (apostle John's monologue)

[Sparko]

In verse 12 it is possible that the Father is speaking but I'm inclined to the view that it is Jesus speaking. In verse 13 it is quite impossible that Jesus is speaking since τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ is a constant epithet of the Father in the Revelation.

I find it curious how you will pick on one piece of my post and ignore the rest that proves you wrong.

You will ignore the whole of scripture to focus and nitpick on a single verse. Evidence is accumulative. And the evidence is there that shows the Son is God. The bible calls him the First and Last, Alpha and Omega, the creator, the Judge, King, Savior, Shepherd, the Light, he accepted worship, and he was directly called "God" in several places.

[Sparko]

The text says that his birth occurred during the time of Καῖσαρ Αὐγούστος who lived about 2000 years ago.

Oh so it's OK for you to use the context to come to a conclusion, but I have to use exact, literal words to convince you? I have to have a literal verse that says, "God is a Trinity" but it's OK for you to read the text and come to a logical conclusion?

[Sparko]

Revelation 22:12 and 22: 13 reminds us of Revelation 1:7 and 1:8 --

In Revelation 1:7 the topic of discussion is Jesus (he is coming, with the clouds etc.), and without any warning the topic switches to the Father the very next verse (saying that the Father is the Alpha and the Omega) . And the very next verse after that, starting verse 9, apostle John's testimony / monologue:



Same format at Revelation 22:12 and 13. So I divide the verses in the same way here also:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:8 is talking about Jesus. He is the "one who is, and who was" (he was dead and now alive) and "who is to come" (when he returns). This is calling Jesus the Almighty and Alpha and Omega again.

It goes on to say:

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

[Unitarian101]

Oh so it's OK for you to use the context to come to a conclusion, but I have to use exact, literal words to convince you? I have to have a literal verse that says, "God is a Trinity" but it's OK for you to read the text and come to a logical conclusion?

I used a factual statement from the same contextual framework detailing the birth of Jesus to come to my conclusion. Your claim on the other hand is based on interpretation not sanctioned by the GNT ( or biblical eisegesis).

[Unitarian101]

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:8 is talking about Jesus. He is the "one who is, and who was" (he was dead and now alive) and "who is to come" (when he returns). This is calling Jesus the Almighty and Alpha and Omega again.

It goes on to say:

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

[Unitarian101]

I find it curious how you will pick on one piece of my post and ignore the rest that proves you wrong.

You will ignore the whole of scripture to focus and nitpick on a single verse. Evidence is accumulative. And the evidence is there that shows the Son is God. The bible calls him the First and Last, Alpha and Omega, the creator, the Judge, King, Savior, Shepherd, the Light, he accepted worship, and he was directly called "God" in several places.

[Sparko]

You can ignore that and the result is the same.

[Sparko]

YHWH is Creator

Isaiah 44:24 "This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 48:13 "My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

Jesus is Creator

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were createdI will sit to judge all the nations on every side." (God is speaking)

Rom. 14:10 "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

Ezekiel 34:17 "`As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 20 "`Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another.

Jesus is Judge

2 Tim. 4:1 "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."

2 Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

John 5: 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him

YHWH is King

Jeremiah 10:10 "But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath."

Isaiah 44:6-8 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

See also Psalm 47

Jesus is King

Matthew 2:2 "...Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

Luke 23:3 So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

See also John 19:21

YHWH is Savior

Isaiah 43:3 "For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"

Isaiah 45:21 "...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."

Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

Hosea 13: 4 "But I am the LORD your God, [who brought you] out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.the Savior of the world.Son to be the Savior of the world

YHWH is Shepherd

Psalm 23:1 Psalm 23 A psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

Isaiah 40:11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.

Ezekiel 34:11 "`For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

Jesus is Shepherd

John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

Hebrews 13:20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

See also John 10:14,16; 1 Pet. 2:25

John 10: 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

YHWH is the Rock

Deut. 32:4 "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."

See also 2 Sam. 22:32 and Isaiah 17:10.

Jesus is the Rock

1 Cor. 10:4 "...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

See also 1 Peter 2:6-8.

YHWH is the Light

Psalm 27:1 "The LORD is my light and my salvation -- whom shall I fear?"

Isaiah 60:20 Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.

1 John 1:5 "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."

Jesus is the Light

John 8:12 "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness,

[Unitarian101]

[Unitarian101]

You can ignore that and the result is the same.

No.

[Sparko]

When speaking of the same function - i.e. the savior of mankind and the world, then no, there are not two saviors. YHWH said he is the ONLY Savior and Jesus is the Savior of mankind and the world. Same with the other titles, like Judge. It is not speaking of any judge, but who will judge between the sheep and goats. YHWH says he will do it, and Jesus says he will do it. YHWH said he created the earth BY HIMSELF, with no one beside him, him alone. Yet John and Colossians say Jesus created everything.

The conclusion is obvious: Jesus is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH. There is only one YHWH. Therefore YHWH is a trinity of three persons revealed as one God.

[Geert van den Bos]

When speaking of the same function - i.e. the savior of mankind and the world, then no, there are not two saviors. YHWH said he is the ONLY Savior and Jesus is the Savior of mankind and the world. Same with the other titles, like Judge. It is not speaking of any judge, but who will judge between the sheep and goats. YHWH says he will do it, and Jesus says he will do it. YHWH said he created the earth BY HIMSELF, with no one beside him, him alone. Yet John and Colossians say Jesus created everything.

The conclusion is obvious: Jesus is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH. There is only one YHWH. Therefore YHWH is a trinity of three persons revealed as one God.

If God was already creator, why then he needed a son to be creator too?

[Sparko]

If God was already creator, why then he needed a son to be creator too?

The Son is God.

[Geert van den Bos]

Rashi on Genesis 1:27 does say rthe same as John in his prologue:

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi/true

And God created man in His image: In the form that was made for him, for everything [else] was created with a command, whereas he [man] was created with the hands (of God)

If man was not created, creation would have been futile, and there wouldn't have been no bible too, and no creation-stories.

Hebrew "basar", flesh, is the root of "b'sorah" = good tidings, gospel

That's what John 1:14 , "and the word became flesh" is about.