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John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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  • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    That's not true.



    That goes contrary to the testimony of Scripture, which says that he was born about 2000 years ago.
    He took on human flesh 2000 years ago. The Son existed before all things.

    John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
      I disagree. At Revelation 22 we have multiple subjects changing hands in quick succession. Sometimes it's hard to tell who is speaking:


      For instance who is speaking in verse 3 through 5 and why ?



      In verse 6 we can all agree that it is the angel speaking (I hope):



      Who is speaking in verse 7 ? Jesus, or the Angel on his behalf [granted though that this would amount to the same thing as Jesus speaking, but it's a technical point nonetheless worth mentioning] ?




      If Jesus is speaking in verse 7 then there is a change in subject without warning in verses 9 through 11 where the Angel speaking.



      Then again, without any warning, we have a change in subject:




      This most likely is Jesus speaking. Though remember that the Father himself comes to dwell with the Saints literally as in Rev. 21:3, and vicariously (through the agency of Jesus, John 14:9, etc.) So it could even be a reference to the Father.

      This (below) is something the Father would say, not Jesus, which would mean that we have a change of subject again without warning.



      Below Jesus is speaking:



      And if Jesus is speaking the below , he clearly distinguishes himself from God:




      Could be apostle John speaking these words.....So not clear at all that Jesus is speaking in Rev. 22:13.
      No, it is very clear that Jesus is speaking in verses 12-16.

      12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

      14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

      16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”




      Only Jesus is "coming soon" - not the Father. And the 13 is a continuation of the same person speaking, as is 14-16.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        No, it is very clear that Jesus is speaking in verses 12-16.

        12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

        14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

        16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”




        Only Jesus is "coming soon" - not the Father. And the 13 is a continuation of the same person speaking, as is 14-16.
        Jesus is speaking in verse 12, the Father is speaking in verses 13 through 15. It is even possible that apostle John or the Angel is soliloquying in verses 14 through 15. If Jesus was speaking throughout, he would not need to re-identify himself in verse 16.

        As I've mentioned various times now, this particular chapter is characterized by abrupt transition of speakers without warning or qualifiers. In verse 21 for instance the transition is so swift that in the first part of the verse Jesus is speaking and in the second part the apostle speaks.

        Have you read this chapter in Greek ? It becomes even more obvious that this is the case if you do so. Here is my reading of the chapter I did yesterday, for more context. Listen carefully how the pause in verse 12 makes perfect sense in light of the pauses which precede it and those which come after. So I contend that even the flow of the Greek supports my contention, IMHO.
        Last edited by Unitarian101; 01-06-2020, 02:00 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
          Jesus is speaking in verse 12, the Father is speaking in verses 13 through 15. It is even possible that apostle John or the Angel is soliloquying in verses 14 through 15. If Jesus was speaking throughout, he would not need to re-identify himself in verse 16.

          As I've mentioned various times now, this particular chapter is characterized by abrupt transition of speakers without warning or qualifiers. In verse 21 for instance the transition is so swift that in the first part of the verse Jesus is speaking and in the second part the apostle speaks.

          Have you read this chapter in Greek ? It becomes even more obvious that this is the case if you do so. Here is my reading of the chapter I did yesterday, for more context. Listen carefully how the pause in verse 12 makes perfect sense in light of the pauses which precede it and those which come after. So I contend that even the flow of the Greek supports my contention, IMHO.
          Your version is so convoluted that they are switching back and forth within one sentence and another with no indication of such.

          Your reading? LOL. There are no pauses in written text, Uni. Just because you stick them into your reading doesn't make it so.

          We have 2,000 years of bible translations and commentary by thousands of experts that disagree with you Uni. Sorry, but I will go with the experts on this rather than some internet dude.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            Your version is so convoluted that they are switching back and forth within one sentence and another with no indication of such.

            Your reading? LOL. There are no pauses in written text, Uni. Just because you stick them into your reading doesn't make it so.

            We have 2,000 years of bible translations and commentary by thousands of experts that disagree with you Uni. Sorry, but I will go with the experts on this rather than some internet dude.
            Because he is seeing vision after vision in quick succession, this "switching back and forth" of subjects "with no indication of such" by the apostle is quite natural. In fact I would be suspicious of the authenticity of the vision if this was not the case. The abrupt transition of speakers without warning or qualifiers is not something grotesque or "convoluted" but is IMHO a sign that the prophecy is authentic. This happens throughout this chapter. Look at the following glaring example on this score :


            Λέγει ὁ μαρτυρῶν ταῦτα Ναί, ἔρχομαι ταχύ. Ἀμήν, ἔρχου Κύριε Ἰησοῦ.
            Rev. 22:20

            One small sentence. Red is Jesus speaking, green is apostle John speaking. "Convoluted" ? Hardly. Rather, it testifies to the fact that the apostle is being bombarded with versions.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Uh yeah it does make him God (and the correct term is "the Son", since Jesus the man didn't exist until the incarnation). The Son is the creator. There is only one creator, God. And there is only one God.
              Your above claim is refuted by Jesus who says in Matthew 24:36 "of that day and that hour no one knows not the angels in heaven NOR THE SON BUT ONLY THE FATHET"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                Because he is seeing vision after vision in quick succession, this "switching back and forth" of subjects "with no indication of such" by the apostle is quite natural. In fact I would be suspicious of the authenticity of the vision if this was not the case. The abrupt transition of speakers without warning or qualifiers is not something grotesque or "convoluted" but is IMHO a sign that the prophecy is authentic. This happens throughout this chapter. Look at the following glaring example on this score :




                Rev. 22:20

                One small sentence. Red is Jesus speaking, green is apostle John speaking. "Convoluted" ? Hardly. Rather, it testifies to the fact that the apostle is being bombarded with versions.
                Rev 22:20 is either John or the Angel all the way. He who testified to these things says “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

                He is quoting Jesus.

                And there is no switching of visions in Rev 22:12 onward. It is a summary and closing of the book. No visions mentioned at all.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  He took on human flesh 2000 years ago. The Son existed before all things.

                  John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
                  The bible says he was born 2000 years ago. Don't know what "he took on human flesh" means. John 1:14 certainly does not say that.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                    The bible says he was born 2000 years ago. Don't know what "he took on human flesh" means. John 1:14 certainly does not say that.
                    The bible doesn't say "he was born 2000 years ago" anywhere.

                    See? I can be just as pedantic as you.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Rev 22:20 is either John or the Angel all the way. He who testified to these things says “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

                      He is quoting Jesus.

                      And there is no switching of visions in Rev 22:12 onward. It is a summary and closing of the book. No visions mentioned at all.
                      That's not the point. Your problem remains: Apostle John or the Angel (if he is indeed quoting Jesus) quotes Jesus in the first half of the verse, and in the second half without any warning, he quotes himself.

                      Similarly, apostle John or the Angel could be quoting Jesus in verse 12 and without any warning quoting the Father in verse 13.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        The bible doesn't say "he was born 2000 years ago" anywhere.

                        See? I can be just as pedantic as you.
                        It does. Luke 2:1-5.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                          That's not the point. Your problem remains: Apostle John or the Angel (if he is indeed quoting Jesus) quotes Jesus in the first half of the verse, and in the second half without any warning, he quotes himself.

                          Similarly, apostle John or the Angel could be quoting Jesus in verse 12 and without any warning quoting the Father in verse 13.
                          Nope. The only reason you are even trying is to support what you already believe. That is not how it reads. In verse 20, it is obvious that the writer is quoting Jesus as part of his sentence. In verse 12 is is just as obvious that the speaker is Jesus all the way through.

                          Jesus also calls himself by the title "First and Last" in Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                            It does. Luke 2:1-5.
                            Really? Where does it say anything about "2000 years ago?" Are you just inferring that?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Nope. The only reason you are even trying is to support what you already believe. That is not how it reads. In verse 20, it is obvious that the writer is quoting Jesus as part of his sentence. In verse 12 is is just as obvious that the speaker is Jesus all the way through.

                              Jesus also calls himself by the title "First and Last" in Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
                              In verse 12 it is possible that the Father is speaking but I'm inclined to the view that it is Jesus speaking. In verse 13 it is quite impossible that Jesus is speaking since τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ is a constant epithet of the Father in the Revelation.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Really? Where does it say anything about "2000 years ago?" Are you just inferring that?
                                The text says that his birth occurred during the time of Καῖσαρ Αὐγούστος who lived about 2000 years ago.

                                Comment

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