Announcement

Collapse

Biblical Languages 301 Guidelines

This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

John 20:28, My Lord and My God

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    In John 20:28 is ὁ θεός "a name, or a title, for the Father" or is it "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" ?
    It's both (except in this case it's a title for the Son). The title or designation of God is only properly attributed to someone who actually is divine, so calling someone God is the same thing as claiming that they have a divine nature.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      It's both (except in this case it's a title for the Son). The title or designation of God is only properly attributed to someone who actually is divine, so calling someone God is the same thing as claiming that they have a divine nature.
      That's grammatically impossible.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
        The Word was clearly a personal being before becoming human though, and did not become another person after becoming human, so it is still proper to call Jesus the Word. The Trinitarian interpretation has absolutely no problems with this verse.
        If "the Word" was already a person, it would be nonsense to say that "he" became a person.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
          If "the Word" was already a person, it would be nonsense to say that "he" became a person.
          But it doesn't say he became a person. It says he became flesh, or human.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
            That's grammatically impossible.
            Grammar has absolutely nothing to do with it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
              Grammar has absolutely nothing to do with it.
              Sure it does..When you say that θεός in John 1:1c is "a name, or a title," you are saying θεός here is definite, but when you say θεός in John 1:1c is "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" you are saying it is either indefinite or else purely qualitative . But a noun in a specific sentence or a clause cannot be both or all three at the same time.

              So you can read the clause in one of three possible ways :

              (1) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is indefinite

              (2) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is definite

              (3) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is purely qualitative



              or is it "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" ?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                But it doesn't say he became a person. It says he became flesh, or human.
                When X becomes "human" they don't become a person ?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                  When X becomes "human" they don't become a person ?
                  Not if they already were a person before becoming a human.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                    Sure it does..When you say that θεός in John 1:1c is "a name, or a title," you are saying θεός here is definite, but when you say θεός in John 1:1c is "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" you are saying it is either indefinite or else purely qualitative . But a noun in a specific sentence or a clause cannot be both or all three at the same time.

                    So you can read the clause in one of three possible ways :

                    (1) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is indefinite

                    (2) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is definite

                    (3) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is purely qualitative



                    or is it "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" ?
                    No, it does not. I'm not saying the noun means "both or all three at the same time", I'm saying that having the name, or title of God implies divine nature. That's why grammar is irrelevant.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                      No, it does not. I'm not saying the noun means "both or all three at the same time",
                      Is θεὸς in John 1:1c definite, or indefinite or purely qualitative?



                      I'm saying that having the name, or title of God implies divine nature. That's why grammar is irrelevant.
                      Who says θεὸς in John 1:1c has (a) the name or title of God and (b) has the nature of this God ? The word θεὸς has a wide range and function in the GNT,-- it can refer to God (as in John 1:1b etc.), or else to human beings (as in John 10:34), or even to a thing (as in Phil. 3:19).

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        Not if they already were a person before becoming a human.
                        Don't know where you are getting this from ?

                        Furthermore, how can someone be "human" yet not be a human person ? Worse still, how can someone be "human" yet be an un-created, Eternal person ? This goes against the very biblical definition of what it means to be human. Humans are creatures, they are not eternal persons, but each human person came into existence at a point in time. The very first human person came into existence very late in the Creation scheme infact (on the 6th day).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                          Don't know where you are getting this from ?

                          Furthermore, how can someone be "human" yet not be a human person ? Worse still, how can someone be "human" yet be an un-created, Eternal person ? This goes against the very biblical definition of what it means to be human. Humans are creatures, they are not eternal persons, but each human person came into existence at a point in time. The very first human person came into existence very late in the Creation scheme infact (on the 6th day).
                          John 1:1-2 speaks of the Word being both "with God" and "was God." And this entity, the Word, is the sole cause, as God, of all things caused, John 1:3.

                          Now if you hear and undertand that the Word is the same God as God whom He is with. Another Person if you will. Same God but a different Person.

                          And this Person,, the Word changed how He was "with God" in becoming flesh, becoming human, John 1:14.

                          That you believe this or not, that is your issue. But I just gave you an explanation.

                          Furthermore in becoming a man He did not cease being God, He only change how He being the Word was "with God." John 1:9-10.
                          Last edited by 37818; 04-04-2020, 09:49 AM.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            John 1:1-2 speaks of the Word being both "with God" and "was God." And this entity, the Word, is the sole cause, as God, of all things caused, John 1:3.

                            Now if you hear and undertand that the Word is the same God as God whom He is with. Another Person if you will. Same God but a different Person.

                            And this Person,, the Word changed how He was "with God" in becoming flesh, becoming human, John 1:14.

                            That you believe this or not, that is your issue. But I just gave you an explanation.

                            Furthermore in becoming a man He did not cease being God, He only change how He being the Word was "with God." John 1:9-10.
                            Try "was a divine thing" for θεὸς ἦν

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                              Try "was a divine thing" for θεὸς ἦν
                              You are hard of hearing.

                              Being the sole Creator:

                              παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν

                              All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

                              Being the true light and having made the world. John 1:9-10.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                John 1:1-2 speaks of the Word being both "with God" and "was God." And this entity, the Word, is the sole cause, as God, of all things caused, John 1:3.

                                Now if you hear and undertand that the Word is the same God as God whom He is with. Another Person if you will. Same God but a different Person.

                                And this Person,, the Word changed how He was "with God" in becoming flesh, becoming human, John 1:14.

                                That you believe this or not, that is your issue. But I just gave you an explanation.

                                Furthermore in becoming a man He did not cease being God, He only change how He being the Word was "with God." John 1:9-10.
                                Saying the word (Jesus) be God and be God in John 1:1-2 means there is more than one God which is against the fact that God is one God in 1 Timothy 2:5 that "God is one God"

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X