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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    What is its dating?
    It's thought to be 121 AD.
    Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
      It's thought to be 121 AD.
      Then in that case her argument makes no sense, since that date is well after John wrote his account.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Then in that case her argument makes no sense, since that date is well after John wrote his account.
        The work now known as the gospel of John is generally dated to the first or second decade of the second century - although some have put it as late as the early middle decades.

        Domitian reigned from 81-96 CE. Hence he was dead before the work came to be composed. However, it might have been employed as a form of address to someone of vastly higher rank.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          The work now known as the gospel of John is generally dated to the first or second decade of the second century - although some have put it as late as the early middle decades.

          Domitian reigned from 81-96 CE. Hence he was dead before the work came to be composed. However, it might have been employed as a form of address to someone of vastly higher rank.
          Funny, some of the oldest NT manuscript fragments are of John P52, P66, P75.
          Last edited by 37818; 07-14-2020, 04:09 PM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Funny, some of the oldest NT manuscript fragments are of John P52, P66, P75.
            Those are not originals.

            You will find that those papyri all date to no earlier than 200 CE and indeed for P66 much later. Furthermore, P52 is a tiny fragment that measures 8.9 by 6 cm.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              Those are not originals.

              You will find that those papyri all date to no earlier than 200 CE and indeed for P66 much later. Furthermore, P52 is a tiny fragment that measures 8.9 by 6 cm.
              First, who is making the claims that copies are the original?

              I was today reading arguments that John was written before 70AD.

              I think if you knew God you would be more open minded about it. Noting that you seem not to believe genuine Christians know God, John 17:3, Romans 8:16.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                Those are not originals.

                You will find that those papyri all date to no earlier than 200 CE and indeed for P66 much later. Furthermore, P52 is a tiny fragment that measures 8.9 by 6 cm.
                Who said we had the originals? Wasn't me.
                Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  First, who is making the claims that copies are the original?
                  I am responding to your remarks by pointing out those ancient fragments are not originals.

                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  I was today reading arguments that John was written before 70AD.
                  On what evidence?
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                    Who said we had the originals? Wasn't me.
                    My remarks were not addressed to you.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      I am responding to your remarks by pointing out those ancient fragments are not originals.
                      What evidence do you have that I had made any claim that there are any manuscript fragments of any original autographs of any New Testament document in any way?

                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      On what evidence?
                      In John's gospel account there is no evidence that it must have been written after 70AD. As for Matthew Paul and James make reference to the teaching in Matthew 5:33-37, Paul in 2 Corinthians 1:17 and James 5:12. Paul makes a claim according to Jesus' instruction found in Mark 16:15 in Colossians 1:23. And Paul cites from Luke 10:7 as holy scripture in 1 Timothy 5:18.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        What evidence do you have that I had made any claim that there are any manuscript fragments of any original autographs of any New Testament document in any way?
                        I repeat that I was merely commenting on your remarks regarding those various papyri.

                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        In John's gospel account there is no evidence that it must have been written after 70AD.
                        What academic sources are you citing in support of that comment?

                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        As for Matthew Paul and James make reference to the teaching in Matthew 5:33-37, Paul in 2 Corinthians 1:17 and James 5:12. Paul makes a claim according to Jesus' instruction found in Mark 16:15 in Colossians 1:23. And Paul cites from Luke 10:7 as holy scripture in 1 Timothy 5:18.
                        Paul was certainly writing before the texts of Matthew and Luke came to be written, and given its approximate datings, in all probability before the text of James was composed as well.

                        Colossians remains a disputed text for Pauline authenticity while Timothy and the other “Pastoral letters” are considered by the majority of scholars to be pseudepigraphical.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Well what you are failing to understand is that the Person of the Son is both not God and and God to mankind. In the words of Jesus, John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

                          So to put it simply, except you also accept Jesus as the same God you are rejectiong God the Father. Even though the Son is not the Father.
                          I also advise stick to Jesus own words that "ONLY THE FATHER" knows that day and that hour and one else including the Holy Spirit; Jesus said "of that day and that hour NO ONE KNOWS not even the angels in heaven BUT ONLY THE FATHER"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            Most probably not.

                            Within that gospel we need to consider the use of the word Lord and its various connotations. At a human level in Hebrew and Aramaic the title ‘Lord’ (i.e. Master or ‘Sir’) is regularly used and denotes persons in position of authority. Likewise the King is invoked as ‘Lord’ as is the Roman Emperor. On the religious side the Aramaic’mar/mari’ in the sense of ‘master’ also refers to a teacher (see also Hebrew ‘rab’ and ‘rabbi’).

                            At the very top of this ranking but still human the term is applied to Elijah and to the Messiah “when will the Lord come?’ .
                            Very true. In Psalms 82:6, God says to certain Jews "You are "GODS" (i.e. ELOHIM); you are all sons of the Most High."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                              Very true. In Psalms 82:6, God says to certain Jews "You are "GODS" (i.e. ELOHIM); you are all sons of the Most High."
                              Judges of Israel. "How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. . . ."
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                Judges of Israel. "How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. . . ."
                                This just goes to show that even unrighteousness judges are given the title of θεός. This word has a wide range and function in the bible. It does not always mean “God” (as in the God of Israel).

                                Comment

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