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Thread: John 20:28, My Lord and My God

  1. #161
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The bible doesn't say "he was born 2000 years ago" anywhere.

    See? I can be just as pedantic as you.
    It does. Luke 2:1-5.

  2. #162
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    That's not the point. Your problem remains: Apostle John or the Angel (if he is indeed quoting Jesus) quotes Jesus in the first half of the verse, and in the second half without any warning, he quotes himself.

    Similarly, apostle John or the Angel could be quoting Jesus in verse 12 and without any warning quoting the Father in verse 13.
    Nope. The only reason you are even trying is to support what you already believe. That is not how it reads. In verse 20, it is obvious that the writer is quoting Jesus as part of his sentence. In verse 12 is is just as obvious that the speaker is Jesus all the way through.

    Jesus also calls himself by the title "First and Last" in Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

  3. #163
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    It does. Luke 2:1-5.
    Really? Where does it say anything about "2000 years ago?" Are you just inferring that?

  4. #164
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Nope. The only reason you are even trying is to support what you already believe. That is not how it reads. In verse 20, it is obvious that the writer is quoting Jesus as part of his sentence. In verse 12 is is just as obvious that the speaker is Jesus all the way through.

    Jesus also calls himself by the title "First and Last" in Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
    In verse 12 it is possible that the Father is speaking but I'm inclined to the view that it is Jesus speaking. In verse 13 it is quite impossible that Jesus is speaking since τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ is a constant epithet of the Father in the Revelation.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Really? Where does it say anything about "2000 years ago?" Are you just inferring that?
    The text says that his birth occurred during the time of Καῖσαρ Αὐγούστος who lived about 2000 years ago.

  6. #166
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    Revelation 22:12 and 22: 13 reminds us of Revelation 1:7 and 1:8 --

    In Revelation 1:7 the topic of discussion is Jesus (he is coming, with the clouds etc.), and without any warning the topic switches to the Father the very next verse (saying that the Father is the Alpha and the Omega) . And the very next verse after that, starting verse 9, apostle John's testimony / monologue:

    Ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται μετὰ τῶν νεφελῶν, καὶ ὄψεται αὐτὸν πᾶς ὀφθαλμὸς καὶ οἵτινες αὐτὸν ἐξεκέντησαν, καὶ κόψονται ἐπ’ αὐτὸν πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς. ναί, ἀμήν.

    Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, λέγει Κύριος ὁ Θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ Παντοκράτωρ.

    Ἐγὼ Ἰωάνης, ὁ ἀδελφὸς ὑμῶν καὶ συνκοινωνὸς ἐν τῇ θλίψει καὶ βασιλείᾳ καὶ ὑπομονῇ ἐν Ἰησοῦ, ἐγενόμην ἐν τῇ νήσῳ τῇ καλουμένῃ Πάτμῳ διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ.


    7 Behold he comes with the clouds,and and all eyes will see him, even those who pierced him, and will wail on account of him all the tribes of the earth. Yes, Amen. (Red is Jesus)

    8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, the One Who is and Who was and Who is to come, the Almighty. (Yellow is the Father)

    9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus..... (Green is apostle John's monologue)
    Same format at Revelation 22:12 and 13. So I divide the verses in the same way here also:

    12 "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. (Red is Jesus)

    13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (Yellow is the Father)

    14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city..... (apostle John's monologue)

  7. #167
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    In verse 12 it is possible that the Father is speaking but I'm inclined to the view that it is Jesus speaking. In verse 13 it is quite impossible that Jesus is speaking since τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ is a constant epithet of the Father in the Revelation.
    I find it curious how you will pick on one piece of my post and ignore the rest that proves you wrong.

    You will ignore the whole of scripture to focus and nitpick on a single verse. Evidence is accumulative. And the evidence is there that shows the Son is God. The bible calls him the First and Last, Alpha and Omega, the creator, the Judge, King, Savior, Shepherd, the Light, he accepted worship, and he was directly called "God" in several places.

  8. Amen Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
  9. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    The text says that his birth occurred during the time of Καῖσαρ Αὐγούστος who lived about 2000 years ago.
    Oh so it's OK for you to use the context to come to a conclusion, but I have to use exact, literal words to convince you? I have to have a literal verse that says, "God is a Trinity" but it's OK for you to read the text and come to a logical conclusion?

  10. #169
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    Revelation 22:12 and 22: 13 reminds us of Revelation 1:7 and 1:8 --

    In Revelation 1:7 the topic of discussion is Jesus (he is coming, with the clouds etc.), and without any warning the topic switches to the Father the very next verse (saying that the Father is the Alpha and the Omega) . And the very next verse after that, starting verse 9, apostle John's testimony / monologue:



    Same format at Revelation 22:12 and 13. So I divide the verses in the same way here also:
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Rev 1:8 is talking about Jesus. He is the "one who is, and who was" (he was dead and now alive) and "who is to come" (when he returns). This is calling Jesus the Almighty and Alpha and Omega again.

    It goes on to say:

    10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

    11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

    12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

    13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

    14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

    15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

    16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

    17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

    18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
    Last edited by Sparko; 01-07-2020 at 05:52 AM.

  11. #170
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Oh so it's OK for you to use the context to come to a conclusion, but I have to use exact, literal words to convince you? I have to have a literal verse that says, "God is a Trinity" but it's OK for you to read the text and come to a logical conclusion?
    I used a factual statement from the same contextual framework detailing the birth of Jesus to come to my conclusion. Your claim on the other hand is based on interpretation not sanctioned by the GNT ( or biblical eisegesis).

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