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Thread: John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Rev 1:8 is talking about Jesus. He is the "one who is, and who was" (he was dead and now alive) and "who is to come" (when he returns). This is calling Jesus the Almighty and Alpha and Omega again.

    It goes on to say:

    10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

    11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

    12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

    13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

    14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

    15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

    16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

    17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

    18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
    The title Alpha & Omega at verse 11 is disputed,some manuscripts have it others do not. So it’s a non-starter.

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I find it curious how you will pick on one piece of my post and ignore the rest that proves you wrong.

    You will ignore the whole of scripture to focus and nitpick on a single verse. Evidence is accumulative. And the evidence is there that shows the Son is God. The bible calls him the First and Last, Alpha and Omega, the creator, the Judge, King, Savior, Shepherd, the Light, he accepted worship, and he was directly called "God" in several places.
    (1) Bible calls Jesus “the first and the last.”. However , when it calls Jesus the “first and the last “ it means something different than when it calls the Father the same. If you would print out the other clarifying title(s) immediately occurring in tandem with this particular title when it is attributed to Jesus, you will understand what I mean.

    (2) Bible does not call Jesus Alpha and Omega.

    (3) It does not call his the Creator.


    (4) It calls a number of other people “judge” as well. Does that make them God also ?

    (5) It calls other human beings “king,” “saviour,” “shepherd,” and “light” as well. You have unwittingly proved that certain epithets of God can be applied to human beings without implying that they are the Almighty.

    (6) Jesus accepted reverence ( it was a common feature , still is I think, in the Eastern tradition to brown down in reverence to a king or a superior). He did not accept worship as God, nor would any first century Jew think of worshipping a human being as God.


    (7) He is not once really called “God” in the bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    The title Alpha & Omega at verse 11 is disputed,some manuscripts have it others do not. So it’s a non-starter.
    You can ignore that and the result is the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    (1) Bible calls Jesus “the first and the last.”. However , when it calls Jesus the “first and the last “ it means something different than when it calls the Father the same. If you would print out the other clarifying title(s) immediately occurring in tandem with this particular title when it is attributed to Jesus, you will understand what I mean.

    (2) Bible does not call Jesus Alpha and Omega.

    (3) It does not call his the Creator.


    (4) It calls a number of other people “judge” as well. Does that make them God also ?

    (5) It calls other human beings “king,” “saviour,” “shepherd,” and “light” as well. You have unwittingly proved that certain epithets of God can be applied to human beings without implying that they are the Almighty.

    (6) Jesus accepted reverence ( it was a common feature , still is I think, in the Eastern tradition to brown down in reverence to a king or a superior). He did not accept worship as God, nor would any first century Jew think of worshipping a human being as God.


    (7) He is not once really called “God” in the bible.
    YHWH is Creator

    Isaiah 44:24 "This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

    Isaiah 48:13 "My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

    Jesus is Creator

    John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    YHWH is the "First and the Last"

    Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

    Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

    Jesus is the "First and the Last"

    Rev. 1:17 "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"

    Rev. 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again."

    Rev. 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

    YHWH is "I AM" (ego eimi)

    Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

    Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

    See also Deut. 32.39

    Jesus is "I AM" (ego eimi in Greek)

    John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (NKJV)

    John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

    John 13:19 "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."

    YHWH is Judge

    Joel 3:12 "Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side." (God is speaking)

    Rom. 14:10 "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

    Ezekiel 34:17 "`As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 20 "`Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another.

    Jesus is Judge

    2 Tim. 4:1 "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge..."

    2 Cor. 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

    Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    John 5: 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him

    YHWH is King

    Jeremiah 10:10 "But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath."

    Isaiah 44:6-8 "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

    See also Psalm 47

    Jesus is King

    Matthew 2:2 "...Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

    Luke 23:3 So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

    See also John 19:21

    YHWH is Savior

    Isaiah 43:3 "For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior"

    Isaiah 45:21 "...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."

    Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

    Hosea 13: 4 "But I am the LORD your God, [who brought you] out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.

    Jesus is Savior

    John 4:42 "They said to the woman, ‘We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.’"

    1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

    YHWH is Shepherd

    Psalm 23:1 Psalm 23 A psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

    Isaiah 40:11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.

    Ezekiel 34:11 "`For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

    Jesus is Shepherd

    John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

    Hebrews 13:20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

    See also John 10:14,16; 1 Pet. 2:25

    John 10: 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

    YHWH is the Rock

    Deut. 32:4 "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."

    See also 2 Sam. 22:32 and Isaiah 17:10.

    Jesus is the Rock

    1 Cor. 10:4 "...for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

    See also 1 Peter 2:6-8.

    YHWH is the Light

    Psalm 27:1 "The LORD is my light and my salvation -- whom shall I fear?"

    Isaiah 60:20 Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.

    1 John 1:5 "God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."

    Jesus is the Light

    John 8:12 "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

    Luke 2:32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."

    See also John 1:7-9

    Isaiah 40:3 A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God. … 9 You who bring good tidings to Zion, go up on a high mountain. You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, lift up your voice with a shout, lift it up, do not be afraid; say to the towns of Judah, "Here is your God!" 10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.

    Isaiah is talking about Jesus yet the verse clearly used the name LORD (YHWH) and specifically says "Here is your God!"

    Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

    Immanuel means "God is with us." Jesus means "the LORD saves." Who does it say will do the saving in verse 21? Jesus.

    Worship

    Only the LORD God should be worshiped. Not men, not false gods, not angels - nobody but God.

    Exodus 34:14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

    Revelation 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

    Colossians 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.



    The LORD (YHWH) was worshiped.

    Exodus 8:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, `This is what the LORD says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me.

    Nehemiah 8:6 Ezra praised the LORD, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, "Amen! Amen!" Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground.

    1 Samuel 15:1 So Samuel went back with Saul, and Saul worshiped the LORD.

    Jesus was worshiped

    Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him.

    Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

    Matthew 28:9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

    Luke 24:51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

    John 9:37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." 38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him

    Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

    Note: the Greek word used for worship in the above passages is the same word as used when speaking of worshiping God, the Father. So the worship Jesus received was the same kind and level of worship the Father received. Jesus never reprimanded anyone for this worship, in fact he accepted it as his due.

    John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

    Saying that Jesus should be honored JUST as they honor the Father, Jesus was claiming EQUALITY with the Father in all respects, for how can someone honor a lesser person to the same degree as a greater?

    Jesus is directly called God and Savior:

    2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

    Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

    Jesus is called God:

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

    2 Timothy 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He (1) appeared in a body (2), was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. NIV footnotes: (1) Some manuscripts God -- (2) Or in the flesh

    John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

    The evidence that Jesus is God is overwhelming.

  5. Amen Christianbookworm, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  6. #175
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    “YHWH” is “Saviour,” Othniel son of Kenaz is Saviour”... Does that make the latter God ? Surely you understand that some of the same titles of God are also given to men without the idea that they are also God ?

  7. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    You can ignore that and the result is the same.
    No.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    “YHWH” is “Saviour,” Othniel son of Kenaz is Saviour”... Does that make the latter God ? Surely you understand that some of the same titles of God are also given to men without the idea that they are also God ?
    When speaking of the same function - i.e. the savior of mankind and the world, then no, there are not two saviors. YHWH said he is the ONLY Savior and Jesus is the Savior of mankind and the world. Same with the other titles, like Judge. It is not speaking of any judge, but who will judge between the sheep and goats. YHWH says he will do it, and Jesus says he will do it. YHWH said he created the earth BY HIMSELF, with no one beside him, him alone. Yet John and Colossians say Jesus created everything.

    The conclusion is obvious: Jesus is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH. There is only one YHWH. Therefore YHWH is a trinity of three persons revealed as one God.

  9. Amen Christianbookworm, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  10. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    When speaking of the same function - i.e. the savior of mankind and the world, then no, there are not two saviors. YHWH said he is the ONLY Savior and Jesus is the Savior of mankind and the world. Same with the other titles, like Judge. It is not speaking of any judge, but who will judge between the sheep and goats. YHWH says he will do it, and Jesus says he will do it. YHWH said he created the earth BY HIMSELF, with no one beside him, him alone. Yet John and Colossians say Jesus created everything.

    The conclusion is obvious: Jesus is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH. There is only one YHWH. Therefore YHWH is a trinity of three persons revealed as one God.
    If God was already creator, why then he needed a son to be creator too?

  11. #179
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    If God was already creator, why then he needed a son to be creator too?
    The Son is God.

  12. #180
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    Rashi on Genesis 1:27 does say rthe same as John in his prologue:

    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi/true
    And God created man in His image: In the form that was made for him, for everything [else] was created with a command, whereas he [man] was created with the hands (of God)
    If man was not created, creation would have been futile, and there wouldn't have been no bible too, and no creation-stories.

    Hebrew "basar", flesh, is the root of "b'sorah" = good tidings, gospel

    That's what John 1:14 , "and the word became flesh" is about.
    Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 01-07-2020 at 08:57 AM.

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