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Thread: John 20:28, My Lord and My God

  1. #191
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Keep wiggling Uni. If anyone is engaging in eisegesis here it is you.

    As I have shown, the Son does everything YHWH does. It is especially relevant that YHWH says he does such things himself, with no other, and the NT says Jesus will be doing those things (Savior, Creator, Judge, etc)

    Who do you think the Son is? He is not created, he created everything. So who is he?
    The son does everything that God shows him, not everything that God has ever done.

    Also, where are you getting the notion that the Son is not created ? The opposite is the case — he was a human being ( by definition that makes him a creature ). Come on friend, be reasonable.

  2. #192
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    . Even though “YHWH” said he is the “only” “Saviour,” there are others who are called Saviours proving that that term applies to them in a different fashion .

    Ben Kenaz was a Saviour of God’s people Israel. God says that he is the Saviour of his people Israel. According to your “logic,” this would make Othniel god. Your position is just not sensible I’m afraid.
    again, the bible is speaking of the ultimate Savior of mankind, not some local savior. You are trying to play word games. Transparently I might add. And you are also ignoring that YHWH said he created everything by himself with no one beside him and yet John 1 and Colossians say that the Son created everything. Even if we take your interpretation that God created through the Son somehow, it would still contradict YHWH who said he created by himself.

  3. #193
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    The son does everything that God shows him, not everything that God has ever done.

    Also, where are you getting the notion that the Son is not created ? The opposite is the case — he was a human being ( by definition that makes him a creature ). Come on friend, be reasonable.
    The Son was not created. The Son is the Word who was with God (the Father) in the beginning. Colossians says that everything was created through and for him. How do you think that could be if he didn't exist until he was born as Jesus?

    The whole point of John 1 is to show that the Son/Word existed before the incarnation and that he took on flesh as Jesus.

  4. Amen Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
  5. #194
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    again, the bible is speaking of the ultimate Savior of mankind, not some local savior. You are trying to play word games. Transparently I might add. And you are also ignoring that YHWH said he created everything by himself with no one beside him and yet John 1 and Colossians say that the Son created everything. Even if we take your interpretation that God created through the Son somehow, it would still contradict YHWH who said he created by himself.
    “Ultimate Saviour” ? The bible is not a Marvel Comic.

    When the bible says Jesus is the “saviour” of mankind, it means that he is the one who saves them from their sins, precisely something the Father could not do (since he is unable to die). So the opposite of your assertion is true.

  6. #195
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The Son was not created. The Son is the Word who was with God (the Father) in the beginning. Colossians says that everything was created through and for him. How do you think that could be if he didn't exist until he was born as Jesus?

    The whole point of John 1 is to show that the Son/Word existed before the incarnation and that he took on flesh as Jesus.
    How can you say the son was not created, when by definition a human being ( which the son was) is a creature ?

  7. #196
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    “Ultimate Saviour” ? The bible is not a Marvel Comic.

    When the bible says Jesus is the “saviour” of mankind, it means that he is the one who saves them from their sins, precisely something the Father could not do (since he is unable to die). So the opposite of your assertion is true.
    And yet YHWH says he is the only Savior.

    Isaiah 45:21 "...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."

    Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

  8. #197
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    And yet YHWH says he is the only Savior.

    Isaiah 45:21 "...And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me."

    Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
    But you’re just repeating the same word game type statement without interacting with the argument.

    The fact that God is the “only” saviour yet others ( specific human beings) are also called “saviour” here and there in the bible, shows that these other saviours are not the “Ultimate” ( as you put it) saviour , but that they are in fact “saviours” in a different sense than the Father is the “saviour.”.

  9. #198
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    But you’re just repeating the same word game type statement without interacting with the argument.

    The fact that God is the “only” saviour yet others ( specific human beings) are also called “saviour” here and there in the bible, shows that these other saviours are not the “Ultimate” ( as you put it) saviour , but that they are in fact “saviours” in a different sense than the Father is the “saviour.”.
    But Jesus is called Savior in the SAME sense as YHWH is, and YHWH says he is the only Savior in that sense. You are the one playing games here. We are not talking about rescuing a kid from drowning here. We are talking about saving the world. Our souls.

  10. #199
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    But Jesus is called Savior in the SAME sense as YHWH is, and YHWH says he is the only Savior in that sense. You are the one playing games here. We are not talking about rescuing a kid from drowning here. We are talking about saving the world. Our souls.

    Savior is Greek σωτὴρ

    Also Zeus was called σωτὴρ

    And the Greek and Roman kings and emperors were called σωτὴρ too

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_I_Soter

    I thought it in NT to be a wordplay with Hebrew "soter" = denier https://twitter.com/Minkmaat/status/732444984524345344

  11. #200
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    Savior is Greek σωτὴρ

    Also Zeus was called σωτὴρ

    And the Greek and Roman kings and emperors were called σωτὴρ too

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_I_Soter

    I thought it in NT to be a wordplay with Hebrew "soter" = denier https://twitter.com/Minkmaat/status/732444984524345344

    And yet none of them are in the bible and YHWH never claimed any of them were the only Savior. He claimed HE was the only Savior. And then we find out Jesus is the only Savior of the world. Jesus must be YHWH, or either Jesus or YHWH are liars.

  12. Amen lee_merrill amen'd this post.

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