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Thread: John 20:28, My Lord and My God

  1. #201
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    And yet none of them are in the bible and YHWH never claimed any of them were the only Savior. He claimed HE was the only Savior. And then we find out Jesus is the only Savior of the world. Jesus must be YHWH, or either Jesus or YHWH are liars.
    Caesar is

    John 19:12,
    From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.”

    v.15,
    Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”

    and Zeus,
    the image of Zeus (in the Temple) being "the abomination of desolation"

  2. #202
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    Caesar is

    John 19:12,
    From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.”

    v.15,
    Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”

    and Zeus,
    the image of Zeus (in the Temple) being "the abomination of desolation"


    OK back to ignoring your nonsense.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    But Jesus is called Savior in the SAME sense as YHWH is, and YHWH says he is the only Savior in that sense. You are the one playing games here. We are not talking about rescuing a kid from drowning here. We are talking about saving the world. Our souls.
    But the reverse is true. Jesus “saves” mankind (from their sins ) in a difference sense — by obeying the will of God and willingly dying on the cross, precisely something which God cannot do.

  4. #204
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    We can indulge in these sorts of arguments all day long and it wouldn’t solve anything IMHO (to ”prove” that Jesus is God). That is why it is not good enough to just make such arguments (eg. “he is called “saviour” therefore he must be God,” etc. ) because these are claims which are refutable with a little logic and common sense.

    So a “proof“ text for Jesus being God Almighty would have to explicitly say just that. Something like “Jesus is the Lord God of Israel, the only true God “ would be a good start , infact it would silence me. The following type of statement would seal the case and I could not honestly then deny that the biblical Jesus is “YHWH” and the “Trinity” is biblical— “Jesus is Almighty God, the Father is Almighty God and the Holy Spirit is Almighty God. Yet there are not three Almighty Gods but only one God Almighty.”

    But nothing remotely resembling such statements is found in the GNT. The proof and articulation is simply not there. And it is very disturbing , or at least it should be for the Trinitarian position.
    Last edited by Unitarian101; 01-09-2020 at 07:48 PM.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    We can indulge in these sorts of arguments all day long and it wouldn’t solve anything IMHO (to ”prove” that Jesus is God). That is why it is not good enough to just make such arguments (eg. “he is called “saviour” therefore he must be God,” etc. ) because these are claims which are refutable with a little logic and common sense.

    So a “proof“ text for Jesus being God Almighty would have to explicitly say just that. Something like “Jesus is the Lord God of Israel, the only true God “ would be a good start , infact it would silence me. The following type of statement would seal the case and I could not honestly then deny that the biblical Jesus is “YHWH” and the “Trinity” is biblical— “Jesus is Almighty God, the Father is Almighty God and the Holy Spirit is Almighty God. Yet there are not three Almighty Gods but only one God Almighty.”

    But nothing remotely resembling such statements is found in the GNT. The proof and articulation is simply not there. And it is very disturbing , or at least it should be for the Trinitarian position.
    You are demanding that God cater to your whims concerning how Christ should be revealed. All I have seen you doing is saying "I won't believe unless I see the holes in his hands." You are picking at little edges of the scriptures and saying "I don't see the deity of Christ." You have a remote possibility of being right, but you have a big task before you to prove you are right. Again, this is the same requirement upon a JW. They don't have the privilege of offering another view of Christ without having proven problems with our Trinitarian understanding.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    Caesar is

    John 19:12,
    From then on Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.”

    v.15,
    Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”

    and Zeus,
    the image of Zeus (in the Temple) being "the abomination of desolation"


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soter

    Soter derives from the Greek epithet σωτήρ (sōtēr), meaning a saviour, a deliverer; initial capitalised Σωτήρ; fully capitalised ΣΩΤΗΡ; feminine Soteira (Σώτειρα) or sometimes Soteria (Σωτηρία). Soter has been used as:

    as a title of gods: Poseidon Soter, Zeus Soter, Dionysus Soter, Apollo Soter, Athena Soteira, Asclepius Soter, and Hecate Soteira.
    as the name of a distinct mythical figure, Soter (daimon)
    any heroized or deified leaders of Hellenistic dynasties, see Hellenistic ruler cult:
    (...)
    as a title of liberators (see also eleutherios (disambiguation)
    a title of Jesus of Nazareth, most particularly in the fish acronym
    Pope Soter, r. ca. 167-174.
    and also title of Caesar Augustus, I found in Ratzinger

    https://twitter.com/Minkmaat/status/732641497707884544



    Luke 2:1,
    And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.


    v.11,
    For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

  7. #207
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    Hebrew "soter" = denier, opposer

    written "samech- vav- tav - resh" it sums up to 666

    So now we got the key to Revelation 13:18,

    since Revelation 2:13 says :
    I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is

    Satan's seat being the altar of Zeus in Pergamon.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pergamon_Altar

    v. 17 promises a white pebble tot the one who is victorious:
    To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.


    ψῆφος,
    1) stone, pebble 1a) in the ancient courts the accused were condemned by black pebbles and the acquitted by white 2) a vote

    The stone being the instrument with which to calculate the number of the Beast


    ψηφίζω
    1) count with pebbles, to compute, calculate, reckon
    2) give one's vote by casting a pebble into the urn
    3) decide by voting

  8. #208
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    So in this same imagination John 20:28 has to be understood

    https://www.postost.net/2015/11/my-lord-my-god

    Caesar Domitian liked to be addressed as dominus et deus (“lord and god”)

  9. #209
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    But the reverse is true. Jesus “saves” mankind (from their sins ) in a difference sense — by obeying the will of God and willingly dying on the cross, precisely something which God cannot do.
    So you just said that YHWH can't be the only Savior then. Or the Savior at all. That makes YHWH a liar.

  10. #210
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    We can indulge in these sorts of arguments all day long and it wouldn’t solve anything IMHO (to ”prove” that Jesus is God). That is why it is not good enough to just make such arguments (eg. “he is called “saviour” therefore he must be God,” etc. ) because these are claims which are refutable with a little logic and common sense.

    So a “proof“ text for Jesus being God Almighty would have to explicitly say just that. Something like “Jesus is the Lord God of Israel, the only true God “ would be a good start , infact it would silence me. The following type of statement would seal the case and I could not honestly then deny that the biblical Jesus is “YHWH” and the “Trinity” is biblical— “Jesus is Almighty God, the Father is Almighty God and the Holy Spirit is Almighty God. Yet there are not three Almighty Gods but only one God Almighty.”

    But nothing remotely resembling such statements is found in the GNT. The proof and articulation is simply not there. And it is very disturbing , or at least it should be for the Trinitarian position.
    So you are saying you can't beat the argument so you dismiss it instead? LOL.

    And we are back to demanding literal statements, when you already admitted you read between the lines on things like when Jesus was born. The bible isn't an instruction manual or list of doctrines, Uni. Demanding it be so before you accept a logical conclusion is just you denying the truth in favor or your already held beliefs.

    Jesus is called Savior, Creator and GOD.
    YHWH is called the ONLY Savior, Creator and GOD
    The Holy Spirit is called the Creator and GOD.

    The Father is not The Son or the Holy Spirit
    The Son is not the Father or Holy Spirit

    There is only ONE God, YHWH

    Therefore YHWH is one God, revealed in three distinct persons. The Trinity.

    No you don't need a literal verse that says it. It is the only conclusion based on reading the bible and accepting what it says is true.
    Last edited by Sparko; 01-10-2020 at 06:33 AM.

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