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Thread: John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So by your reasoning, if Othniel was called the Savior it would be a lie because God was the only savior?
    Could you show me the verse where it says that God is the "only Savior", first ?

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    Moses is (called) the savior of Israel

    Rashi on Exodus 1:22,

    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi/true

    On the day Moses was born, his astrologers told him [Pharaoh], Today the one who will save them has been born, but we do not know whether from the Egyptians or from the Israelites, but we see that he will ultimately be smitten through water. Therefore, on that day he issued a decree also upon the Egyptians, as it is said: Every son who is born, and it does not say: who is born to the Hebrews. They did not know, however, that he [Moses] would ultimately suffer because of the water of Meribah (Num. 20:7-13) [i.e., that he would not be permitted to enter the Holy Land].
    he saved them from Egyptian slavery by making known to them the name of the one he met at the burning bush

  3. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    Moses is (called) the savior of Israel

    Rashi on Exodus 1:22,

    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi/true



    he saved them from Egyptian slavery by making known to them the name of the one he met at the burning bush
    Which is also behind John 1:17,
    For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

    https://twitter.com/Minkmaat/status/989778752543641600

  4. #234
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    Moses is (called) the savior of Israel

    Rashi on Exodus 1:22,

    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi/true



    he saved them from Egyptian slavery by making known to them the name of the one he met at the burning bush

    the one who met him ...

    Exodus 3:2,

    and there appeared to him the angel of the Lord in a flame of fire from the midst of the bush

  5. #235
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    Could you show me the verse where it says that God is the "only Savior", first ?
    Hosea 13:4
    “But I have been the Lord your God
    ever since you came out of Egypt.
    You shall acknowledge no God but me,
    no Savior except me.

    Isaiah 43:11
    I, even I, am the Lord,
    and apart from me there is no savior.

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  7. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Hosea 13:4
    “But I have been the Lord your God
    ever since you came out of Egypt.
    You shall acknowledge no God but me,
    no Savior except me.

    Isaiah 43:11
    I, even I, am the Lord,
    and apart from me there is no savior.
    You will notice that the word "only" is not in the text. So to say the bible insists that God is the "only Savior" is misleading.

    Now, in Hosea 13:4 and Isaiah 43:11 when God says there is no Savior except him, the sense is not that He is literally the "only" Savior but that there is no other Savior like God, otherwise you prove God a liar at verses like Judges 3:9 .

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    You will notice that the word "only" is not in the text. So to say the bible insists that God is the "only Savior" is misleading.

    Now, in Hosea 13:4 and Isaiah 43:11 when God says there is no Savior except him, the sense is not that He is literally the "only" Savior but that there is no other Savior like God, otherwise you prove God a liar at verses like Judges 3:9 .
    Gah! You are nitpicking and trying to be literal again in order to avoid the clear meaning of the text. The clear meaning is that YHWH is the only Savior of Israel and the World. Apart from him there is NO SAVIOR. Clear meaning. Since you are trying to be literal here, the word "like" is not in the verses. The Isrealites are not to acknowledge any other God or any other savior but God.

    And yet, in the NT it does just that in many, many verses. It says Jesus is the Savior of the world and of us all. Therefore either the NT or YHWH is lying.

    Your little bit about how God can claim to be the only Savior despite Jesus saving us is wrong. Because if you are correct, then it means that the NT is wrong to claim Jesus is the Savior. Because again, the NT is speaking of Jesus being the savior in the same sense as YHWH is claiming to be the exclusive savior. Same with YHWH claiming to be the only God and creator and there is none beside him. That he created alone. And yet in the NT it calls the Son "God" and says he created everything.

  9. #238
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Gah! You are nitpicking and trying to be literal again in order to avoid the clear meaning of the text. The clear meaning is that YHWH is the only Savior of Israel and the World. Apart from him there is NO SAVIOR. Clear meaning. Since you are trying to be literal here, the word "like" is not in the verses. The Isrealites are not to acknowledge any other God or any other savior but God.

    And yet, in the NT it does just that in many, many verses. It says Jesus is the Savior of the world and of us all. Therefore either the NT or YHWH is lying.

    Your little bit about how God can claim to be the only Savior despite Jesus saving us is wrong. Because if you are correct, then it means that the NT is wrong to claim Jesus is the Savior. Because again, the NT is speaking of Jesus being the savior in the same sense as YHWH is claiming to be the exclusive savior. Same with YHWH claiming to be the only God and creator and there is none beside him. That he created alone. And yet in the NT it calls the Son "God" and says he created everything.
    If God is the "only Savior" (even though no scripture says this) how can Othniel ben Kenaz also be a "Savior" ? Hate to say this, but you make God out to be a liar with your interpretation .

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    If God is the "only Savior" (even though no scripture says this) how can Othniel ben Kenaz also be a "Savior" ? Hate to say this, but you make God out to be a liar with your interpretation .
    Because Othniel is not said to be a savior in the same sense as YHWH. But Jesus IS. e.g. The Messiah. Savior of the world. Of our souls.

    It's not the word "savior" that is in question, but the job/action it represents. Not merely saving a city or a people but savior of creation itself. Isaiah 43 is God telling Israel how he is exclusively God, the Redeemer, the Creator and the Savior and how he will restore everything. Then we see in the NT that Jesus is called God, the Redeemer, the Creator, and the Savior and will restore everything and save creation and us.

  11. #240
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Because Othniel is not said to be a savior in the same sense as YHWH. But Jesus IS. e.g. The Messiah. Savior of the world. Of our souls.

    It's not the word "savior" that is in question, but the job/action it represents. Not merely saving a city or a people but savior of creation itself. Isaiah 43 is God telling Israel how he is exclusively God, the Redeemer, the Creator and the Savior and how he will restore everything. Then we see in the NT that Jesus is called God, the Redeemer, the Creator, and the Savior and will restore everything and save creation and us.
    It is precisely because God could not die for our sins that Jesus is a savior in a different sense than God is. Also, even if we grant (for the sake of argument) that he was a savior "in the same sense" that God is, it would then be that there are two Saviors (albeit in the same sense) , not one Savior.

    I don't think this is a good argument, nor even a logical and consistent one.

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