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Thread: John 20:28, My Lord and My God

  1. #211
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post


    OK back to ignoring your nonsense.
    Aside from the Zeus thing, Geert is correct that one of Caesar's titles was "Soter" - making Jesus' claim to the title subversive. Similarly, "euangelion" was the "good news" of a caesar's accession.
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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The Son is God.
    You claiming "The Son is God" goes against Jesus clear-cut words in John 17:1-3 where Jesus addressed specifically the Father as "THE ONLY TRUE GOD". So the only true God is the Father.

  3. #213
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Aside from the Zeus thing, Geert is correct that one of Caesar's titles was "Soter" - making Jesus' claim to the title subversive. Similarly, "euangelion" was the "good news" of a caesar's accession.
    What the Romans called Caesar doesn't matter to my argument. Jesus's titles are directly related to YHWH's titles, same religion, same ethnic people, same meaning of the titles. That some other religion called someone Savior or God has no bearing on the discussion. And if the bible reported what that other religion called that person, so what? That Jesus and his followers called him "Savior" meaning the same manner as YHWH called himself "Savior" is significant. Either Jesus was lying, YHWH was lying, or Jesus/the Son is YHWH. Same with the various other titles.

    Truthfully, I have not even bothered to read Geert's babbling.

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    What the Romans called Caesar doesn't matter to my argument. Jesus's titles are directly related to YHWH's titles, same religion, same ethnic people, same meaning of the titles. That some other religion called someone Savior or God has no bearing on the discussion. And if the bible reported what that other religion called that person, so what? That Jesus and his followers called him "Savior" meaning the same manner as YHWH called himself "Savior" is significant. Either Jesus was lying, YHWH was lying, or Jesus/the Son is YHWH. Same with the various other titles.
    What the Romans called Caesar in the lingua franca of the time should matter to your argument; Christianity began in that environment, making it relevant. Further, your are basing your argument on the English translation from two different languages, which is not exactly a solid foundation.
    Truthfully, I have not even bothered to read Geert's babbling.
    If you're going to blithely dismiss something, you should at least read it first. Blind squirrels do occasionally find a nut.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post

    If you're going to blithely dismiss something, you should at least read it first. Blind squirrels pigs do occasionally find a nut.
    If you want to get personal

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    What the Romans called Caesar in the lingua franca of the time should matter to your argument; Christianity began in that environment, making it relevant. Further, your are basing your argument on the English translation from two different languages, which is not exactly a solid foundation.
    It's the context and concept that I was referring to. The OT claims YHWH has various attributes and exclusive titles that Jesus claims for himself in the NT. That Caesar claims to be a God or Savior doesn't factor into that. It is a completely different paradigm. Nobody is trying to claim Caesar is YHWH anywhere. But since the NT claims the Son is the Savior, the Creator, God, either YHWH was lying, Jesus was lying, or Jesus is YHWH. Now if you or Geert want to claim that Caesar is YWWH, then go for it.

    If you're going to blithely dismiss something, you should at least read it first. Blind squirrels do occasionally find a nut.
    Geert is a blind and demented delusional squirrel.

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    It's the context and concept that I was referring to. The OT claims YHWH has various attributes and exclusive titles that Jesus claims for himself in the NT. That Caesar claims to be a God or Savior doesn't factor into that. It is a completely different paradigm. Nobody is trying to claim Caesar is YHWH anywhere. But since the NT claims the Son is the Savior, the Creator, God, either YHWH was lying, Jesus was lying, or Jesus is YHWH. Now if you or Geert want to claim that Caesar is YWWH, then go for it.
    I looked back at your list of scriptures. Neither NT passage you cite regarding Jesus as Savior is a quotation of what he said; one is from the lips of the Samaritans and the other is a statement in 1 John where the title of Caesar as Savior is highly contextually relevant. Neither one of us is claiming that Caesar is YWWH [sic]. I'm saying that your argument is flawed, and handwaving isn't going to fix it. I of course agree that Jesus is God; you're on rather firmer ground when arguing from titles such as Creator. This one is rather more nuanced, and yelling louder isn't helping. Reading some Larry Hurtado would do you some good.
    Geert is a blind and demented delusional squirrel.
    Who nonetheless can stumble across the occasional nut.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  8. #218
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I looked back at your list of scriptures. Neither NT passage you cite regarding Jesus as Savior is a quotation of what he said; one is from the lips of the Samaritans and the other is a statement in 1 John where the title of Caesar as Savior is highly contextually relevant. Neither one of us is claiming that Caesar is YWWH [sic]. I'm saying that your argument is flawed, and handwaving isn't going to fix it. I of course agree that Jesus is God; you're on rather firmer ground when arguing from titles such as Creator. This one is rather more nuanced, and yelling louder isn't helping. Reading some Larry Hurtado would do you some good.

    Who nonetheless can stumble across the occasional nut.
    I listed a whole slew of comparisons, OBP. I can't help that geert and Uni want to nitpick one of them. Thanks for helping them though. Really nice of you.

    Uni has a habit of ignoring everything but one little part he can nitpick. Then claiming the whole argument is wrong and ignoring the rest of the evidence. And geert jumps in and spews a bunch of irrelevant nonsense. If you REALLY want to help, how about defending the Trinity yourself instead of nitpicking along with Uni and Geert? I really don't need any more hecklers.

    OK so Jesus didn't use the word Savior himself. But the concept is there and it is in a lot more places than two verses. Clearly the NT is talking about Jesus being the only Savior in the same sense that the OT says YHWH is.

    Acts 4:12
    Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

    Luke 2:11
    for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

    1Timothy 1:15
    It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

    Luke 19:10
    "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."

    Acts 13:23
    "From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,

    Titus 2:13
    looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

    Matthew 1:21
    "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."Acts 4:12
    "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."


    Ephesians 5:23
    For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

    Philippians 3:20
    For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;2 Timothy 1:10
    but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

    1 Timothy 4:10
    For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

    John 4:42
    and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."

    1 John 4:14
    We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
    https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topi...Christ,-Savior
    Last edited by Sparko; 01-10-2020 at 11:50 AM.

  9. #219
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikewhitney View Post
    You are demanding that God cater to your whims concerning how Christ should be revealed. All I have seen you doing is saying "I won't believe unless I see the holes in his hands." You are picking at little edges of the scriptures and saying "I don't see the deity of Christ." You have a remote possibility of being right, but you have a big task before you to prove you are right. Again, this is the same requirement upon a JW. They don't have the privilege of offering another view of Christ without having proven problems with our Trinitarian understanding.
    No, just asking for simple articulation.

  10. #220
    tWebber
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    the abomination of desolation was a sttue of Zeus aka Jupiter

    The Roman emperors were venerated or wanted to be venerated as kind of Jupiters in the flesh, as human gods.

    Like Caesar Domitian.

    You must also consider that the words of Thomas in John 20:28, "My Lord and My God" were directed to the resurrected Jesus, who was kind of distinct from the Jesus before he was crucified.

    Of which Paul said.
    1 Corinthians 15:44,

    It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 01-10-2020 at 12:09 PM.

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