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Thread: John 20:28, My Lord and My God

  1. #221
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So you just said that YHWH can't be the only Savior then. Or the Savior at all. That makes YHWH a liar.
    Didn’t say that. God is the “only” Saviour in the sense that , for example, He commanded Jesus to die for the sins of men. So if the Father didn’t command Jesus, there would be no salvation of mankind because Jesus would not have died for our sins.

    The enigmas you are trying to create with the word “only” do not stand if you understand the sense in which God is the only Saviour. The Father is the Source of salvation, Jesus is the means. Also Jesus as “saviour” is limited mainly to his duty of saving mankind from their sins. But the Father as Saviour is all encompassing. Perhaps the word you used earlier , “ultimate,” is apt after all, only that it applies to the Father and not to Jesus.
    Last edited by Unitarian101; 01-10-2020 at 12:25 PM.

  2. #222
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    Didn’t say that. God is the “only” Saviour in the sense that , for example, He commanded Jesus to die for the sins of men. So if the Father didn’t command Jesus, there would be no salvation of mankind because Jesus would not have died for our sins.

    The enigmas you are trying to create with the word “only” do not stand if you understand the sense in which God is the only Saviour.
    What?

    So if I command you to save a drowning child then I can claim I was the only savior of that child? Sounds like YHWH is a politician!

  3. #223
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    What?

    So if I command you to save a drowning child then I can claim I was the only savior of that child? Sounds like YHWH is a politician!
    If you are able to do NOTHING apart from me, and then I ask you to save a child for me with my power, who is really the only Saviour of the child ? You ?

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    If you are able to do NOTHING apart from me, and then I ask you to save a child for me with my power, who is really the only Saviour of the child ? You ?
    So Jesus is just a meat puppet to you then. Got it. Like a remote controlled toy?

  5. #225
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Uni, if I were a general and I send you on a mission to save some hostages, I MIGHT be able to claim some shared credit with you, but you would have been the one who did the saving. I could hold a press conference and said "Today we saved 10 hostages" but I certainly could not say "I saved the hostages by myself. There was none beside me, no not one! I was their only savior!"

  6. #226
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Uni, if I were a general and I send you on a mission to save some hostages, I MIGHT be able to claim some shared credit with you, but you would have been the one who did the saving. I could hold a press conference and said "Today we saved 10 hostages" but I certainly could not say "I saved the hostages by myself. There was none beside me, no not one! I was their only savior!"
    That’s a false analogy. A Rambo like soldier who is sent on a mission saves by his own strength, but Jesus saved by the power of God.

  7. #227
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So Jesus is just a meat puppet to you then. Got it. Like a remote controlled toy?
    Not quite, he had free will to do the will of his Father or to not do it. But God provided him with the strength to accomplish his mission.

  8. #228
    tWebber
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    I don’t think Sparko realizes just how unbiblical his reasoning is. He says that if a general sends a soldier to save someone it is the soldier who has really saved. In the non-biblical context this is true, but within the biblical context this is not the case, assuming the general is God.


    So in Judges 3 God raised a great soldier, judge and saviour named Othniel the son of Knaz, a champion of the children of Israel. The spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he went out to war and he defeated Cushan-rishathaim the king of Aram thereby providing safety for the children of Israel.

    Yet to say that it was Othniel who really defeated the pagan king and saved Israel is wrong. Why ? Because Othniel defeated the king of Aram with the power of God, it was God who had empowered him with his own Spirit. So God, not Othniel is the “ultimate” or “only” Saviour.
    Last edited by Unitarian101; 01-10-2020 at 11:10 PM.

  9. #229
    tWebber
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    I feel sorry for Christians who claim without strong biblical support that Jesus was God in nature.

    God in the Bible has certain attributes that only fit Him. For example, God knows everything according to 1 John 3:20. But Jesus said in Matthew 24:36 "no one knows of that day or that hour not angels in heaven nor the Son BUT ONLY THE FATHER" and therefore, it is "ONLY THE FATHER" that knows that hour according to Jesus.

  10. #230
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    I don’t think Sparko realizes just how unbiblical his reasoning is. He says that if a general sends a soldier to save someone it is the soldier who has really saved. In the non-biblical context this is true, but within the biblical context this is not the case, assuming the general is God.


    So in Judges 3 God raised a great soldier, judge and saviour named Othniel the son of Knaz, a champion of the children of Israel. The spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he went out to war and he defeated Cushan-rishathaim the king of Aram thereby providing safety for the children of Israel.

    Yet to say that it was Othniel who really defeated the pagan king and saved Israel is wrong. Why ? Because Othniel defeated the king of Aram with the power of God, it was God who had empowered him with his own Spirit. So God, not Othniel is the “ultimate” or “only” Saviour.


    So by your reasoning, if Othniel was called the Savior it would be a lie because God was the only savior?

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