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Thread: John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Grammar has absolutely nothing to do with it.
    Sure it does..When you say that θεός in John 1:1c is "a name, or a title," you are saying θεός here is definite, but when you say θεός in John 1:1c is "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" you are saying it is either indefinite or else purely qualitative . But a noun in a specific sentence or a clause cannot be both or all three at the same time.

    So you can read the clause in one of three possible ways :

    (1) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is indefinite

    (2) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is definite

    (3) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is purely qualitative



    or is it "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" ?

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    But it doesn't say he became a person. It says he became flesh, or human.
    When X becomes "human" they don't become a person ?

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    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    When X becomes "human" they don't become a person ?
    Not if they already were a person before becoming a human.

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    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    Sure it does..When you say that θεός in John 1:1c is "a name, or a title," you are saying θεός here is definite, but when you say θεός in John 1:1c is "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" you are saying it is either indefinite or else purely qualitative . But a noun in a specific sentence or a clause cannot be both or all three at the same time.

    So you can read the clause in one of three possible ways :

    (1) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is indefinite

    (2) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is definite

    (3) καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος, where θεὸς is purely qualitative



    or is it "telling us what kind of nature the Word had" ?
    No, it does not. I'm not saying the noun means "both or all three at the same time", I'm saying that having the name, or title of God implies divine nature. That's why grammar is irrelevant.

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    No, it does not. I'm not saying the noun means "both or all three at the same time",
    Is θεὸς in John 1:1c definite, or indefinite or purely qualitative?



    I'm saying that having the name, or title of God implies divine nature. That's why grammar is irrelevant.
    Who says θεὸς in John 1:1c has (a) the name or title of God and (b) has the nature of this God ? The word θεὸς has a wide range and function in the GNT,-- it can refer to God (as in John 1:1b etc.), or else to human beings (as in John 10:34), or even to a thing (as in Phil. 3:19).

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Not if they already were a person before becoming a human.
    Don't know where you are getting this from ?

    Furthermore, how can someone be "human" yet not be a human person ? Worse still, how can someone be "human" yet be an un-created, Eternal person ? This goes against the very biblical definition of what it means to be human. Humans are creatures, they are not eternal persons, but each human person came into existence at a point in time. The very first human person came into existence very late in the Creation scheme infact (on the 6th day).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    Don't know where you are getting this from ?

    Furthermore, how can someone be "human" yet not be a human person ? Worse still, how can someone be "human" yet be an un-created, Eternal person ? This goes against the very biblical definition of what it means to be human. Humans are creatures, they are not eternal persons, but each human person came into existence at a point in time. The very first human person came into existence very late in the Creation scheme infact (on the 6th day).
    John 1:1-2 speaks of the Word being both "with God" and "was God." And this entity, the Word, is the sole cause, as God, of all things caused, John 1:3.

    Now if you hear and undertand that the Word is the same God as God whom He is with. Another Person if you will. Same God but a different Person.

    And this Person,, the Word changed how He was "with God" in becoming flesh, becoming human, John 1:14.

    That you believe this or not, that is your issue. But I just gave you an explanation.

    Furthermore in becoming a man He did not cease being God, He only change how He being the Word was "with God." John 1:9-10.
    Last edited by 37818; 04-04-2020 at 07:49 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  8. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    John 1:1-2 speaks of the Word being both "with God" and "was God." And this entity, the Word, is the sole cause, as God, of all things caused, John 1:3.

    Now if you hear and undertand that the Word is the same God as God whom He is with. Another Person if you will. Same God but a different Person.

    And this Person,, the Word changed how He was "with God" in becoming flesh, becoming human, John 1:14.

    That you believe this or not, that is your issue. But I just gave you an explanation.

    Furthermore in becoming a man He did not cease being God, He only change how He being the Word was "with God." John 1:9-10.
    Try "was a divine thing" for θεὸς ἦν

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    Try "was a divine thing" for θεὸς ἦν
    You are hard of hearing.

    Being the sole Creator:

    παντα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωρις αυτου εγενετο ουδε εν ο γεγονεν

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Being the true light and having made the world. John 1:9-10.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  10. #330
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    John 1:1-2 speaks of the Word being both "with God" and "was God." And this entity, the Word, is the sole cause, as God, of all things caused, John 1:3.

    Now if you hear and undertand that the Word is the same God as God whom He is with. Another Person if you will. Same God but a different Person.

    And this Person,, the Word changed how He was "with God" in becoming flesh, becoming human, John 1:14.

    That you believe this or not, that is your issue. But I just gave you an explanation.

    Furthermore in becoming a man He did not cease being God, He only change how He being the Word was "with God." John 1:9-10.
    Saying the word (Jesus) be God and be God in John 1:1-2 means there is more than one God which is against the fact that God is one God in 1 Timothy 2:5 that "God is one God"

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