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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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  • Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    I am as eternal as my father is.
    If you are saying that once created that your soul will exist forever, that's one thing, but if you are making a claim to existing forever -- without end or beginning...

    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life for free
    Thirsty is Tweb's resident bartender. He absolutely adores tips (the type you can spend). As for another type of tip... to be safe make sure to take only bottled drinks from him (ones that have not been opened).

    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    for free , German "umsonst"
    And in Swahili "for free" is "bure"

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

      And in Swahili "for free" is "bure"
      it's also in English

      in vain = for nothing = for free

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        You need to see a doctor.
        John 10:30-31,

        "I and the father, we are one.”

        The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.


        Although I don't agree much with this guy, he here hits the point:

        https://goedbericht.nl/ik-en-de-vader-zijn-een/

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Hey Kofthu! I was just looking at your web site. Hilarious! I especially liked the bit about the Vulcan salute!

          But no, it says everything was created in and by the Son and everything holds together through him.

          and in John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

          So the Son existed before everything and created everything. The only being that describes is God. The Son is God. As is the Father and the Holy Spirit.
          Jesus creating everything does not make Jesus God in nature because Jesus did not have power but power was given to Jesus as Acts 2:22 says "Jesus of Nazereth a man approved by signs and wonders God did through him"

          Jesus existing before the world does not make Jesus God in nature because Melchizedek is "without father without mother with begining of days and without ending of life like the Son" in hebrews 7:3.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
            Jesus creating everything does not make Jesus God in nature because Jesus did not have power but power was given to Jesus as Acts 2:22 says "Jesus of Nazereth a man approved by signs and wonders God did through him"

            Jesus existing before the world does not make Jesus God in nature because Melchizedek is "without father without mother with begining of days and without ending of life like the Son" in hebrews 7:3.
            All appearances of God, John 1:18; John 12:41 <> Isaiah 6:5, was by way of the Son.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              All appearances of God, John 1:18; John 12:41 <> Isaiah 6:5, was by way of the Son.
              Jesus said in John 5:19 "Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

              Then in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father is greater than I"

              The catch all is Jesus addressing in name the Father as "the ONLY true God" in John 17:1-3

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                There is no other valid interpretation.
                That's not true.

                The Son is before all things. That means he existed before anything was made. Only God has existed before anything was made. There is only one God. Therefore the Son is God. Jesus is the Son and is the creator of all things.
                That goes contrary to the testimony of Scripture, which says that he was born about 2000 years ago.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                  Jesus said in John 5:19 "Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."

                  Then in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father is greater than I"

                  The catch all is Jesus addressing in name the Father as "the ONLY true God" in John 17:1-3
                  I tend to agree.

                  So children, if someone tells you that the Son is also the only true God, they are directly contradicting Jesus.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Um, Revelation 22:13 is Jesus speaking.

                    Rev 22:13

                    12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

                    14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

                    16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”


                    He says he is the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last and the Beginning and End. Titles only God has.
                    I disagree. At Revelation 22 we have multiple subjects changing hands in quick succession. Sometimes it's hard to tell who is speaking:


                    For instance who is speaking in verse 3 through 5 and why ?

                    3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
                    In verse 6 we can all agree that it is the angel speaking (I hope):

                    6The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
                    Who is speaking in verse 7 ? Jesus, or the Angel on his behalf [granted though that this would amount to the same thing as Jesus speaking, but it's a technical point nonetheless worth mentioning] ?


                    7“Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.”
                    If Jesus is speaking in verse 7 then there is a change in subject without warning in verses 9 through 11 where the Angel speaking.

                    8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!” 10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. 11Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”
                    Then again, without any warning, we have a change in subject:


                    12"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done."
                    This most likely is Jesus speaking. Though remember that the Father himself comes to dwell with the Saints literally as in Rev. 21:3, and vicariously (through the agency of Jesus, John 14:9, etc.) So it could even be a reference to the Father.

                    This (below) is something the Father would say, not Jesus, which would mean that we have a change of subject again without warning.

                    13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
                    Below Jesus is speaking:

                    16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you a this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” 17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life."
                    And if Jesus is speaking the below , he clearly distinguishes himself from God:


                    18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
                    Could be apostle John speaking these words.....So not clear at all that Jesus is speaking in Rev. 22:13.

                    Comment


                    • This fella is on the right track, search under "Rev. 22:13 a difficult text" :

                      If the speaker is Jesus then this could be saying two things: (1) it could be a proof-text for the deity of Jesus or (2) it could merely be saying that God has conferred upon his agent par excellence titles that had previously been reserved for him alone as part of Jesus’ post-resurrection exaltation (giving him a name above every name, cf. Phil 2.9-11).

                      If the speaker is God then we assume that there was an abrupt transition of speakers between verses 12 and 13. At first glance this position seems unlikely but once one considers the abrupt transitions that happened between verses 6 [the angel speaking], 7 [Jesus speaking], and 8 [John speaking], it becomes plausible.

                      Honestly, I have not made up my mind on Rev 22.13 and would appreciate any insight you all might have. I do know this: that we should not start from the last chapter of the last book of the Bible in our quest for understanding who God and Jesus are.
                      I would say some Trinitarians prey on this verse precisely because it is "difficult." Why isn't there a single clear and irrefutable verse where Jesus is called "God" in the GNT ?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                        I would say some Trinitarians prey on this verse precisely because it is "difficult."
                        No, this is not difficult, Jesus is clearly speaking here: "I am coming soon … I am the Alpha and the Omega..."

                        Why isn't there a single clear and irrefutable verse where Jesus is called "God" in the GNT ?
                        There are many, as has been pointed out. "While we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ..." Tt 2:13. Now this cannot be "the glory of our great God, and Savior Jesus Christ", since God's glory no one can see (Ex. 33:18-20), yet we have seen the glory of Jesus, and will see it (John 1:14, John 17:24).

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          No, this is not difficult, Jesus is clearly speaking here: "I am coming soonI am the Alpha and the Omega..."


                          There are many, as has been pointed out. "While we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ..." Tt 2:13. Now this cannot be "the glory of our great God, and Savior Jesus Christ", since God's glory no one can see (Ex. 33:18-20), yet we have seen the glory of Jesus, and will see it (John 1:14, John 17:24).

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          That is just not a true and honest statement. It is quite possible that red above is Jesus speaking and blue above the Father. Chapter 22 is characterized by abrupt transitions -- as the source I cited also recognized ( between verses 6 [the angel speaking], 7 [Jesus speaking], and 8 [John speaking]) etc.

                          Comment


                          • Just look at the abrupt transitions in this whole chapter --

                            6 Καὶ εἶπέν μοι Οὗτοι οἱ λόγοι πιστοὶ καὶ ἀληθινοί, καὶ ὁ Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς τῶν πνευμάτων τῶν προφητῶν ἀπέστειλεν τὸν ἄγγελον αὐτοῦ δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει. (Angel speaking)

                            7 καὶ Ἰδοὺ ἔρχομαι ταχύ. μακάριος ὁ τηρῶν τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου. (Jesus speaking).

                            8 Κἀγὼ Ἰωάνης ὁ ἀκούων καὶ βλέπων ταῦτα. καὶ ὅτε ἤκουσα καὶ ἔβλεψα, ἔπεσα προσκυνῆσαι ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ποδῶν τοῦ ἀγγέλου τοῦ δεικνύοντός μοι ταῦτα. 9 καὶ λέγει μοι Ὅρα μή· σύνδουλός σού εἰμι καὶ τῶν ἀδελφῶν σου τῶν προφητῶν καὶ τῶν τηρούντων τοὺς λόγους τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου· τῷ Θεῷ προσκύνησον. 10 Καὶ λέγει μοι Μὴ σφραγίσῃς τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου· ὁ καιρὸς γὰρ ἐγγύς ἐστιν.11 ὁ ἀδικῶν ἀδικησάτω ἔτι, καὶ ὁ ῥυπαρὸς ῥυπανθήτω ἔτι, καὶ ὁ δίκαιος δικαιοσύνην ποιησάτω ἔτι, καὶ ὁ ἅγιος ἁγιασθήτω ἔτι.(Apostle John speaking ).

                            12 Ἰδοὺ ἔρχομαι ταχύ, καὶ ὁ μισθός μου μετ’ ἐμοῦ, ἀποδοῦναι ἑκάστῳ ὡς τὸ ἔργον ἐστὶν αὐτοῦ. (Jesus Speaking)

                            13 ἐγὼ τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ, ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος, ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος. 14 μακάριοι οἱ πλύνοντες τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν, ἵνα ἔσται ἡ ἐξουσία αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλον τῆς ζωῆς καὶ τοῖς πυλῶσιν εἰσέλθωσιν εἰς τὴν πόλιν. 15 ἔξω οἱ κύνες καὶ οἱ φαρμακοὶ καὶ οἱ πόρνοι καὶ οἱ φονεῖς καὶ οἱ εἰδωλολάτραι καὶ πᾶς φιλῶν καὶ ποιῶν ψεῦδος. (The Father Speaking)

                            16 Ἐγὼ Ἰησοῦς ἔπεμψα τὸν ἄγγελόν μου μαρτυρῆσαι ὑμῖν ταῦτα ἐπὶ ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις. ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ῥίζα καὶ τὸ γένος Δαυείδ, ὁ ἀστὴρ ὁ λαμπρός, ὁ πρωϊνός. (Jesus speaking)

                            17 Καὶ τὸ Πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ νύμφη λέγουσιν Ἔρχου. καὶ ὁ ἀκούων εἰπάτω Ἔρχου. καὶ ὁ διψῶν ἐρχέσθω, ὁ θέλων λαβέτω ὕδωρ ζωῆς δωρεάν. 18 Μαρτυρῶ ἐγὼ παντὶ τῷ ἀκούοντι τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου· ἐάν τις ἐπιθῇ ἐπ’ αὐτά, ἐπιθήσει ὁ Θεὸς ἐπ’ αὐτὸν τὰς πληγὰς τὰς γεγραμμένας ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ· 19 καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης, ἀφελεῖ ὁ Θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως τῆς ἁγίας, τῶν γεγραμμένων ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ. (Apostle John speaking)

                            20 Λέγει ὁ μαρτυρῶν ταῦτα Ναί, ἔρχομαι ταχύ. Ἀμήν, ἔρχου Κύριε Ἰησοῦ. (Jesus and Apostle John speaking in the same verse)

                            21 Ἡ χάρις τοῦ Κυρίου Ἰησοῦ μετὰ πάντων. (Apostle John speaking)

                            Comment


                            • Revelation 20:20 should be split into two verses I think --

                              Λέγει ὁ μαρτυρῶν ταῦτα Ναί, ἔρχομαι ταχύ. Ἀμήν, ἔρχου Κύριε Ἰησοῦ.

                              He who is the faithful witness to all these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon!” Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
                              Like so --

                              20 Λέγει ὁ μαρτυρῶν ταῦτα Ναί, ἔρχομαι ταχύ. (Jesus speaking)

                              21 Ἀμήν, ἔρχου Κύριε Ἰησοῦ. (Apostle John speaking)

                              ...in English...


                              20 He who is the faithful witness to all these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon!” (Jesus speaking)

                              21 Amen! Come, Lord Jesus! (Apostle John speaking)
                              so that the words "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!" should go with what comes next, like so ---


                              21 Amen! Come, Lord Jesus! The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.
                              Regardless, still proves my point .

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Same Hakeem View Post
                                Jesus creating everything does not make Jesus God in nature because Jesus did not have power but power was given to Jesus as Acts 2:22 says "Jesus of Nazereth a man approved by signs and wonders God did through him"

                                Jesus existing before the world does not make Jesus God in nature because Melchizedek is "without father without mother with begining of days and without ending of life like the Son" in hebrews 7:3.
                                Uh yeah it does make him God (and the correct term is "the Son", since Jesus the man didn't exist until the incarnation). The Son is the creator. There is only one creator, God. And there is only one God.

                                Comment

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