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Thread: John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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    They do have a response at John 20:17 were Jesus calls The "Father" "my God" just as it is with "Mary."
    He does the same just before he dies quoting Psalm 22.
    BU

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    yeah the greek interlinear is great to show Jehovah's Witnesses. They have no response since it clearly show Thomas calling Jesus his God. One tried to to tell me that was just a figure of speech. well it would be a very blasphemous figure of speech and Jesus would have corrected him.
    It proves that John was written during the reign of Domitian

    http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article



    Emperor Domitian, the self-proclaimed “Lord and God” and ruthless dictator, reigned from AD 81 to 96. He was the son of Emperor Vespasian and the brother of Titus, the conquerors of Jerusalem in AD 70
    cf. John 19:12, the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.”



    v. 15, Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.



    v.12 Greek οἱ δὲ Ἰουδαῖοι ἐκραύγασαν λέγοντες, Ἐὰν τοῦτον ἀπολύσῃς, οὐκ εἶ φίλος τοῦ Καίσαρος: πᾶς ὁ βασιλέα ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν ἀντιλέγει τῷ Καίσαρι.

    φίλος = friend


    cf. John 15:13, μείζονα ταύτης ἀγάπην οὐδεὶς ἔχει, ἵνα τις τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ θῇ ὑπὲρ τῶν φίλων αὐτοῦ. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life (soul) for his friends.

    and also John 11:3, Κύριε, ἴδε ὃν φιλεῖς ἀσθενεῖ. Master, see the one you love (= your friend) is sick

    and next
    11 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, 15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 So Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

    ἀντιλέγω = to speak against, contradict, oppose

    = Hebrew "satar"

    "soteir" = opposer, denier

    denier Greek ἀρνούμενος
    1 John 2:22,
    Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

    "soteir" written "samech -vav - tav- resh" in numbers "60-6-400-200" = 666, the number mentioned in Revelation 13:18

    http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article

    The Book of Revelation is a polemic against Emperor Domitian and the Roman world
    Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 12-30-2017 at 01:24 AM.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    They do have a response at John 20:17 were Jesus calls The "Father" "my God" just as it is with "Mary."
    He does the same just before he dies quoting Psalm 22.
    BU
    Yeah, Jesus was a man. It does not change the fact that according to John 20:28 Thomas addressed Jesus as both his Lord and God.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    Yeah, Jesus was a man. It does not change the fact that according to John 20:28 Thomas addressed Jesus as both his Lord and God.
    A few verses later, v.31, it says:

    but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    So not: that you may believe that Jesus is God

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    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    A few verses later, v.31, it says:

    but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    So not: that you may believe that Jesus is God
    From which it can be inferred perhaps, that Jesus is not God. As opposed to the inferences available from such passages as declare him to be the creator ... oh, they are explicit - not depending on inferences. And of course there are the passages from which it can be inferred that explicitly declare him to be the equal of God.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    It proves that John was written during the reign of Domitian

    http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article




    cf. John 19:12, the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.”



    v. 15, Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.



    v.12 Greek οἱ δὲ Ἰουδαῖοι ἐκραύγασαν λέγοντες, Ἐὰν τοῦτον ἀπολύσῃς, οὐκ εἶ φίλος τοῦ Καίσαρος: πᾶς ὁ βασιλέα ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν ἀντιλέγει τῷ Καίσαρι.

    φίλος = friend


    cf. John 15:13, μείζονα ταύτης ἀγάπην οὐδεὶς ἔχει, ἵνα τις τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ θῇ ὑπὲρ τῶν φίλων αὐτοῦ. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life (soul) for his friends.

    and also John 11:3, Κύριε, ἴδε ὃν φιλεῖς ἀσθενεῖ. Master, see the one you love (= your friend) is sick

    and next
    11 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, 15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 So Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

    ἀντιλέγω = to speak against, contradict, oppose

    = Hebrew "satar"

    "soteir" = opposer, denier

    denier Greek ἀρνούμενος
    1 John 2:22,
    Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

    "soteir" written "samech -vav - tav- resh" in numbers "60-6-400-200" = 666, the number mentioned in Revelation 13:18

    http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article
    In addition to the "amen" button, I am thinking we need a "You are freaking nuts" button.

  8. Amen One Bad Pig, LostSheep, Faber, NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    In the text Thomas explicitly address Jesus as his Lord and God. ". . . And Thomas answered and said unto Him, . . ." . . . και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω . . . .
    "gOD

    God without being "God."

    “GOD … The names of God . . . In the Bible, God is defined both generically and specifically. Generically, he is called ‘el or elohim (which is the plural form of ‘el) in Hebrew and theos in Greek. ... As the words ‘el and theos can be used to refer to any supernatural power, of which there may be many, as well as to the supreme or absolute supernatural being. Because of this, translators of the Bible have felt free to use similar words in other languages which have a corresponding breath of meaning (e.g. ‘God’ in English), ... .”-‘New Dictionary of Biblical Theology’ published by InterVarsty Press p.513

    Jesus is a "supernatural power" without being God.
    BU

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibleuser View Post
    "gOD

    God without being "God."

    “GOD … The names of God . . . In the Bible, God is defined both generically and specifically. Generically, he is called ‘el or elohim (which is the plural form of ‘el) in Hebrew and theos in Greek. ... As the words ‘el and theos can be used to refer to any supernatural power, of which there may be many, as well as to the supreme or absolute supernatural being. Because of this, translators of the Bible have felt free to use similar words in other languages which have a corresponding breath of meaning (e.g. ‘God’ in English), ... .”-‘New Dictionary of Biblical Theology’ published by InterVarsty Press p.513

    Jesus is a "supernatural power" without being God.
    BU
    ". . . know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides Me there is no Saviour. . . ." -- Isaiah 43:10-11.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  11. Amen Sparko amen'd this post.
  12. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    It proves that John was written during the reign of Domitian

    http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article




    cf. John 19:12, the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.”



    v. 15, Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.



    v.12 Greek οἱ δὲ Ἰουδαῖοι ἐκραύγασαν λέγοντες, Ἐὰν τοῦτον ἀπολύσῃς, οὐκ εἶ φίλος τοῦ Καίσαρος: πᾶς ὁ βασιλέα ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν ἀντιλέγει τῷ Καίσαρι.

    φίλος = friend


    cf. John 15:13, μείζονα ταύτης ἀγάπην οὐδεὶς ἔχει, ἵνα τις τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ θῇ ὑπὲρ τῶν φίλων αὐτοῦ. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life (soul) for his friends.

    and also John 11:3, Κύριε, ἴδε ὃν φιλεῖς ἀσθενεῖ. Master, see the one you love (= your friend) is sick

    and next
    11 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, 15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 So Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

    ἀντιλέγω = to speak against, contradict, oppose

    = Hebrew "satar"

    "soteir" = opposer, denier

    denier Greek ἀρνούμενος
    1 John 2:22,
    Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

    "soteir" written "samech -vav - tav- resh" in numbers "60-6-400-200" = 666, the number mentioned in Revelation 13:18

    http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article
    John 11:4,
    Αὕτη ἡ ἀσθένεια οὐκ ἔστιν πρὸς θάνατον ἀλλ' ὑπὲρ τῆς δόξης τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα δοξασθῇ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ δι' αὐτῆς.
    “This sickness does not lead to death. but is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

    is kind of a key-verse for a right understanding of this and that

    δι' αὐτῆς seemingly refers to Αὕτη ἡ ἀσθένεια

    Hebrew "chol" profane; that which pertains to the six weekdays

    shares it's rootletters with "cholèh"= sick; "machalah" sickness.

    That John plays with these might be clear from John 5:5, One man was there who had been sick for thirty-eight years. , since 38 is gematria of "chol" = profane.

    cf. Rashi on Genesis 2:2, And God completed on the seventh day:
    Rabbi Shimon said: [A human being of] flesh and blood, who cannot know his times and his moments, must add from the profane to the holy The Holy One, blessed be He, Who knows His times and His moments [exactly], entered it [the Sabbath] within a hairbreadth.

    which is about the same -- biggest mystery of the bible.


    δόξα glory

    also in John 1:14,
    καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ and we saw it's glory

    δόξα τοῦ θεοῦ glory of God --

    also in John 11:39-40
    Κύριε, ἤδη ὄζει, τεταρταῖος γάρ ἐστιν. λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Οὐκ εἶπόν σοι ὅτι ἐὰν πιστεύσῃς ὄψῃ τὴν δόξαν τοῦ θεοῦ;
    Sir, he smells already, for it is the fourth day. Jesus said to her; "Didn't i tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of God"

    which refers back to v.25 . Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life, etc"

    To be the resurrection he had to die first.

    The calling Lazarus from his grave was the ultimate reason for the chief priests and Pharisees to have him put to death
    v. 53, So from that day on they made plans to put him to death.

    If Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross he also couldn't have called Lazarus from the grave.

    The Chief priests and Pharisees searched Jesus'death out of fear for the Romans,

    v.47-48 , “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

    i.e. fear for Caesar -- the world-ruler

    by the time John was written it was Domitian, who had call himself "Lord and God"

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