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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    A few verses later, v.31, it says:

    but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    So not: that you may believe that Jesus is God
    From which it can be inferred perhaps, that Jesus is not God. As opposed to the inferences available from such passages as declare him to be the creator ... oh, they are explicit - not depending on inferences. And of course there are the passages from which it can be inferred that explicitly declare him to be the equal of God.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
      It proves that John was written during the reign of Domitian

      http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article




      cf. John 19:12, the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.”



      v. 15, Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.



      v.12 Greek οἱ δὲ Ἰουδαῖοι ἐκραύγασαν λέγοντες, Ἐὰν τοῦτον ἀπολύσῃς, οὐκ εἶ φίλος τοῦ Καίσαρος: πᾶς ὁ βασιλέα ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν ἀντιλέγει τῷ Καίσαρι.

      φίλος = friend


      cf. John 15:13, μείζονα ταύτης ἀγάπην οὐδεὶς ἔχει, ἵνα τις τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ θῇ ὑπὲρ τῶν φίλων αὐτοῦ. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life (soul) for his friends.

      and also John 11:3, Κύριε, ἴδε ὃν φιλεῖς ἀσθενεῖ. Master, see the one you love (= your friend) is sick

      and next
      11 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, 15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 So Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

      ἀντιλέγω = to speak against, contradict, oppose

      = Hebrew "satar"

      "soteir" = opposer, denier

      denier Greek ἀρνούμενος
      1 John 2:22,
      Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

      "soteir" written "samech -vav - tav- resh" in numbers "60-6-400-200" = 666, the number mentioned in Revelation 13:18

      http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article
      In addition to the "amen" button, I am thinking we need a "You are freaking nuts" button.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        In the text Thomas explicitly address Jesus as his Lord and God. ". . . And Thomas answered and said unto Him, . . ." . . . και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω . . . .
        "gOD

        God without being "God."

        “GOD … The names of God . . . In the Bible, God is defined both generically and specifically. Generically, he is called ‘el or elohim (which is the plural form of ‘el) in Hebrew and theos in Greek. ... As the words ‘el and theos can be used to refer to any supernatural power, of which there may be many, as well as to the supreme or absolute supernatural being. Because of this, translators of the Bible have felt free to use similar words in other languages which have a corresponding breath of meaning (e.g. ‘God’ in English), ... .”-‘New Dictionary of Biblical Theology’ published by InterVarsty Press p.513

        Jesus is a "supernatural power" without being God.
        BU

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
          "gOD

          God without being "God."

          “GOD … The names of God . . . In the Bible, God is defined both generically and specifically. Generically, he is called ‘el or elohim (which is the plural form of ‘el) in Hebrew and theos in Greek. ... As the words ‘el and theos can be used to refer to any supernatural power, of which there may be many, as well as to the supreme or absolute supernatural being. Because of this, translators of the Bible have felt free to use similar words in other languages which have a corresponding breath of meaning (e.g. ‘God’ in English), ... .”-‘New Dictionary of Biblical Theology’ published by InterVarsty Press p.513

          Jesus is a "supernatural power" without being God.
          BU
          ". . . know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides Me there is no Saviour. . . ." -- Isaiah 43:10-11.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
            It proves that John was written during the reign of Domitian

            http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article




            cf. John 19:12, the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar's friend. Everyone who makes himself a king opposes Caesar.”



            v. 15, Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.



            v.12 Greek οἱ δὲ Ἰουδαῖοι ἐκραύγασαν λέγοντες, Ἐὰν τοῦτον ἀπολύσῃς, οὐκ εἶ φίλος τοῦ Καίσαρος: πᾶς ὁ βασιλέα ἑαυτὸν ποιῶν ἀντιλέγει τῷ Καίσαρι.

            φίλος = friend


            cf. John 15:13, μείζονα ταύτης ἀγάπην οὐδεὶς ἔχει, ἵνα τις τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ θῇ ὑπὲρ τῶν φίλων αὐτοῦ. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life (soul) for his friends.

            and also John 11:3, Κύριε, ἴδε ὃν φιλεῖς ἀσθενεῖ. Master, see the one you love (= your friend) is sick

            and next
            11 After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12 The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died, 15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16 So Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

            ἀντιλέγω = to speak against, contradict, oppose

            = Hebrew "satar"

            "soteir" = opposer, denier

            denier Greek ἀρνούμενος
            1 John 2:22,
            Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

            "soteir" written "samech -vav - tav- resh" in numbers "60-6-400-200" = 666, the number mentioned in Revelation 13:18

            http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...1.aspx#Article
            John 11:4,
            Αὕτη ἡ ἀσθένεια οὐκ ἔστιν πρὸς θάνατον ἀλλ' ὑπὲρ τῆς δόξης τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα δοξασθῇ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ δι' αὐτῆς.
            “This sickness does not lead to death. but is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

            is kind of a key-verse for a right understanding of this and that

            δι' αὐτῆς seemingly refers to Αὕτη ἡ ἀσθένεια

            Hebrew "chol" profane; that which pertains to the six weekdays

            shares it's rootletters with "cholèh"= sick; "machalah" sickness.

            That John plays with these might be clear from John 5:5, One man was there who had been sick for thirty-eight years. , since 38 is gematria of "chol" = profane.

            cf. Rashi on Genesis 2:2, And God completed on the seventh day:
            Rabbi Shimon said: [A human being of] flesh and blood, who cannot know his times and his moments, must add from the profane to the holy The Holy One, blessed be He, Who knows His times and His moments [exactly], entered it [the Sabbath] within a hairbreadth.

            which is about the same -- biggest mystery of the bible.


            δόξα glory

            also in John 1:14,
            καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ and we saw it's glory

            δόξα τοῦ θεοῦ glory of God --

            also in John 11:39-40
            Κύριε, ἤδη ὄζει, τεταρταῖος γάρ ἐστιν. λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Οὐκ εἶπόν σοι ὅτι ἐὰν πιστεύσῃς ὄψῃ τὴν δόξαν τοῦ θεοῦ;
            Sir, he smells already, for it is the fourth day. Jesus said to her; "Didn't i tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of God"

            which refers back to v.25 . Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life, etc"

            To be the resurrection he had to die first.

            The calling Lazarus from his grave was the ultimate reason for the chief priests and Pharisees to have him put to death
            v. 53, So from that day on they made plans to put him to death.

            If Jesus wouldn't have died on the cross he also couldn't have called Lazarus from the grave.

            The Chief priests and Pharisees searched Jesus'death out of fear for the Romans,

            v.47-48 , “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

            i.e. fear for Caesar -- the world-ruler

            by the time John was written it was Domitian, who had call himself "Lord and God"

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              ". . . know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides Me there is no Saviour. . . ." -- Isaiah 43:10-11.
              He was addressing the Jews herein NOT Followers of Jesus but followers of Moses & The Law!
              So as Jesus had not yet been and gone to become "saviour" he was the only one until He sent Jesus to do that job.
              So please get the context right.
              BU

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                He was addressing the Jews herein NOT Followers of Jesus but followers of Moses & The Law!
                So as Jesus had not yet been and gone to become "saviour" he was the only one until He sent Jesus to do that job.
                So please get the context right.
                BU
                Since when? Did Jehovah lie? What did the Apostle Peter argue regarding all the prophets calling Jesus? ". . . To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins. . . . " -- Acts 10:43.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Since when? Did Jehovah lie? What did the Apostle Peter argue regarding all the prophets calling Jesus? ". . . To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins. . . . " -- Acts 10:43.
                  He does not, You do not grasp the meaning of the texts.

                  In arguing that way you do not point to the later prophecy of Obadiah, verse 21 (AV; AS; RS), which reads: “And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD’S.” Please, note here that there are other saviors besides the Lord Jehovah. Also you do not point to the following scriptures that speak of other saviors: “And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians.” (2*Ki. 13:5, AV) “According to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.” (Neh. 9:27, AV) “And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts .*.*. and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.” (Isa. 19:20, AV) So Jehovah can raise up others to act as saviors as many as he likes too.

                  Saviour is a relative term understood in context whom it is talking about!
                  BU

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                    He does not, You do not grasp the meaning of the texts.

                    In arguing that way you do not point to the later prophecy of Obadiah, verse 21 (AV; AS; RS), which reads: “And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD’S.” Please, note here that there are other saviors besides the Lord Jehovah. Also you do not point to the following scriptures that speak of other saviors: “And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians.” (2*Ki. 13:5, AV) “According to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.” (Neh. 9:27, AV) “And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts .*.*. and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.” (Isa. 19:20, AV) So Jehovah can raise up others to act as saviors as many as he likes too.

                    Saviour is a relative term understood in context whom it is talking about!
                    BU
                    Peter's argument was all the prophets would speak of Him. Not just one. What name does all the prophets use for which Peter argued (Acts 10:43)? That is the issue which you did not address.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                      He was addressing the Jews herein NOT Followers of Jesus but followers of Moses & The Law!
                      So as Jesus had not yet been and gone to become "saviour" he was the only one until He sent Jesus to do that job.
                      So please get the context right.
                      BU
                      But "before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me." so Jesus is not a God then. Yet John 1 says he is. If Jesus is a God and God said that no Gods would be formed before or after him, then Jesus must be a false God? Why do you follow a false God, BU?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        It might be noted that the name Lazarus, Λάζαρος, is Greek form of Hebrew name Eliezer, a.o. the name of Abraham's servant.

                        the name Eliezer , אֱלִיעֶֽזֶר, does mean "my God is help" -- in Greek it would be " ὁ θεός μου βοηθός "

                        So Thomas' saying : Ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου might well refer to the story of Lazarus

                        (the number of Eliezer's name is 318, the number of Abram's trained servants (initiates) mentioned in Genesis 14:14, with which Abram gained victory over the four kings in favor of the five, about which Psalms 110 was written, from which the sitting of Jesus'sitting at the right hand of God is derived)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Sparko's right. It's time for the "freaking nuts" button.
                          freaking nuts.jpg
                          When I Survey....

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Faber View Post
                            Sparko's right. It's time for the "freaking nuts" button.
                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]25935[/ATTACH]
                            SPAJFN! Just rolls off the tongue!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              But "before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me." so Jesus is not a God then. Yet John 1 says he is. If Jesus is a God and God said that no Gods would be formed before or after him, then Jesus must be a false God? Why do you follow a false God, BU?
                              you might reconsideer John 1, and not in some crooked translation, but in the original Greek

                              http://www.septuagint.org/NT/John/1

                              Nowhere it says that Jesus is or was God.

                              John 1:14,
                              Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο = and the word becmae flesh

                              it refers back to the word mentioned in v. 1

                              The word of which the following verses say that it is not some dead thing, like a Christian dogma, but that there is light in it, a light the darkness can not catch.

                              Now light is Hebrew "or" -- first mentioning in Genesis 1:3 and of which Genesis 1:4 says that God saw the light to be good.

                              Good = Hebrew "tov", with gematria 17,

                              153, the number mentioned in John 21:11, = trianggle 17

                              Now the third "tov" of Genesis, mentioned in Genesis 1:12, is the 153rd word from the beginning,

                              In Genesis 1:11 the earth was asked to sprout forth "etz pri oseh pri" (fruit tree that makes fruit) , but in Genesis 1:12 it is stated that the earth brought forth "etz oseh pri" (tree making fruit)

                              If the earth had done what God had asked, in bringing forth "etz pri oseh pri" , then the "tov" in Genesis 1:12 would have been the 154th word. (which wouldn't have been good at all, since God saw it to be good that the earth brought forth "etz oseh pri")

                              This being the big secret of scripture.

                              Also worded as "felix culpa"

                              Without sin there is also no forgiveness of sin.

                              Lazarus ( = Eliezer) being the one to figure out these things
                              Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 01-18-2018, 06:48 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                                you might reconsideer John 1, and not in some crooked translation, but in the original Greek

                                http://www.septuagint.org/NT/John/1

                                Nowhere it says that Jesus is or was God.

                                John 1:14,
                                Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο = and the word becmae flesh

                                it refers back to the word mentioned in v. 1

                                The word of which the following verses say that it is not some dead thing, like a Christian dogma, but that there is light in it, a light the darkness can not catch.

                                Now light is Hebrew "or" -- first mentioning in Genesis 1:3 and of which Genesis 1:4 says that God saw the light to be good.

                                Good = Hebrew "tov", with gematria 17,

                                153, the number mentioned in John 21:11, = trianggle 17

                                Now the third "tov" of Genesis, mentioned in Genesis 1:12, is the 153rd word from the beginning,

                                In Genesis 1:11 the earth was asked to sprout forth "etz pri oseh pri" (fruit tree that makes fruit) , but in Genesis 1:12 it is stated that the earth brought forth "etz oseh pri" (tree making fruit)

                                If the earth had done what God had asked, in bringing forth "etz pri oseh pri" , then the "tov" in Genesis 1:12 would have been the 154th word. (which wouldn't have been good at all, since God saw it to be good that the earth brought forth "etz oseh pri")

                                This being the big secret of scripture.

                                Also worded as "felix culpa"

                                Without sin there is also no forgiveness of sin.

                                Lazarus ( = Eliezer) being the one to figure out these things
                                Well, at least with your level of crazy, we don't have to worry about you sucking anyone else in, because nobody can follow your extreme nuttery.

                                Comment

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